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Alisha

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Subject: Spousal Maintenance and cohabitation Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:38:59

Hi all, Have been divorced 3yrs or so now. Have 2 kids 13 + 9. Happily thinking about cohabiting again (new partner) but, obviously, lots of factors to consider. First, I assume I would lose my SM, is that correct? I was working but lost my job in November and am struggling to find new job. If I do cohabit again, it will be because that is what I/we want to do, regardless of legal position. But I do need to know how it all works. Other things which could affect this are: Ex reduced agreed combined CM + SM about 18mos ago when he received a pay cut. Ex now lives with new partner in her home. I have main care of children, they visit ex every other weekend, Friday and Sat nights. I own my flat (with a mortgage) and new partner owns house (paid-off) with soon to be Ex. One more question: New partner in throes of divorce. He has been out of marital home for past 2 years. If we cohabit, will this affect his maintenance payments? It seems like I should be pleased that I want to share my life with someone, but it also feels very complicated, money-wise. What things (financial) do I need to consider if we cohabit, and what things does new partner need to consider? Many thanks in advance for any advice. Alisha

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evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

Hi Alisha For you, it depends on the wording of your consent order, but generally you are right and cohabitation for 6 months or remarriage means spousal maintenance will no longer be paid. CM will continue. Did you agree the spousal maintenance cut? If not, then he should not have reduced it if there is a court order without going to court with a variation request. You don\'t say if your new partner has children, but his maintenance will depend on his children\'s needs if he has them. As he will be housed his needs will be considered less than his wifes as she is housing the children. He would be best looking for a clean break settlement, as any spousal maintenance is likely to be higher if he lives with you than if he were living alone.

Alisha

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:38:59

Thanks evr. I didn\'t agree the cut, but ex cannot give me money he no longer has. He said he cut the maintenance in line with his salary reduction. And I have to believe him. Or go back the legal route, which is not something I\'m prepared to do. New partner has 1 child, age 6, and a wife who does not work. She and the child have been living in the house and he has been maintaining their lifestyle as it always has been. But if my ex is cohabiting, should my SM be higher? You said it would potentially affect my partners\' SM level so I\'m wondering.

Alisha

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:38:59

Just re-read and realized I forgot to add something. Details about the living together situation. In our rehousing efforts, new partner and I not looking to stay in current places. My flat is not big enough. His house just about big enough, but not ideal. But I\'d have to sell mine to buy out his ex (not sure anyone wants this), and no telling if I\'d be able to sell mine. So he needs to sell his house but, again, how long will that take? So he will not be living with me in my current place, we\'d have to get something together, big enough for a family of 5. He currently has his child 1 weeknight and alternate weekends Fri eve - Mon morn.

evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

As to your spousal maintenance, it is really academic if you are going to cohabit. As I said, its likely to stop after 6 months anyway. It sounds as though your new partner needs to finalise his divorce and make a financial settlement before you make plans to be honest. Too complicated otherwise.

Kat007

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:05

SM read your consent order regarding finances as I have had put in mine SM for life or until I remarry, there is no clause regarding cohabitation, so ifI move in with someone I still have my independance financially from new partner. Have a good read and see what clauses have been put in.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Most SM is only payable until cohabitation for 6 months or remarriage and I think Kats version is not the norm. To be honest (not having a go at anyone) I really dont agree with this idea of being able to live with a new partner whilst still claiming SM from the ex. After all, tax credits are reduced upon cohabitation so why not SM. As I have said previously on other threads, I couldnt live with someone who was still taking money from her ex as it would make me feel like a sponger.... Alisha, your partners ex is living in the FMH with their child? There is no guarantee that the house will be sold as clearly the needs of the child are a high priority. Insofar as selling any property and how long it will take??? well credit crunch times mean properties not selling.....so who knows? Finally, I dont think cohabiting affects SM level when they are the payer....the SM level is based upon the payers income and not his / her partner. It wouldnt be fair to expect you to effectively pay SM to your partners ex...

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

You may have a point Stuart, but nothing is achieved in inventing law you wished existed when it doesn\'t. The law says maintenance must end on remarriage, not cohabitation, and I don\'t think it is known whether most SM is payable only until cohabitation. Even when it does there is usually a clause \"or by further order of the court\" because courts do not want someone left high and dry. The authority on this was the Court of Appeal case Fleming which said that cohabitation does not equate to remarriage but the wife’s cohabitation with another man would be taken into account when the Court has regard to the circumstances of the case. Under the law as it currently stands, the wife’s new partner would have no financial responsibility towards her in terms of payment of maintenance if their relationship came to an end, and so the wife should not be left open to this potential vulnerability. Courts usually calculate (with the help of tables) maintenance by deducting the recipients income from their income needs to establish a figure. Then they deduct the payers income needs from their income to determine the payers ability to pay. A \'test\' is then applied to ensure proportionality and balance.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

ok...standing corrected... So effectively mum can move new chap in and as long as she doesnt remarry she and new bloke can live off the ex hubby. All sounds a bit spineless if you ask me......

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

Stidsy, ooooh, you know I hate to disagree with you, my learned friend, but.... Consent orders are written by Counsel, not legislation, and certainly the ones I have seen say within 6 months of co-habitation, or marriage. (The usual triggers) Now if Mr Martin says you are right then I will eat my cloth cap, but I have the sneaky\'s that whatever is in the order is what the situation is based on. And, I would also say that what Kat has is pretty exceptional. Most women, shock horror, are expected to be able to go and get a job and support themselves rather than get SM for life. (I know you didn\'t say it wasn\'t, but I thought I would throw it in as an observation) L&H xx

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

>After all, tax credits are reduced upon cohabitation so why not SM. Tax credit are a state benefit intended to stop families falling (further) into poverty. The state, i.e. the taxpayer, should however always be a funder of last resort - so it is only right and proper that if the household can meet its own need, it should - and the taxpayer steps out. Whether it is defensible to pay SM upon cohabitation or not seems a bit of a grey area. If you considered SM as a payment to the pwc for their disproportionate share of the childcare, then it seems fairly unfair to arbitarily stop it just because they have a personal life too, and the bf has moved in. Indeed you could ask, why should the bf pay for the pwc to stay at home and look after someone elses\' kids? And Simes - I would say Kat is pretty exceptional too ;-)

Kat007

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:05

Ah bless you guy\'s made me blush he he(assume your not kidding lol)

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Simes, it may be most consent orders do say SM ends on cohabitation but my point was most people don\'t go to court and there are no records kept so we don\'t know. I don\'t know how many cases when the cohabitation clause was challenged you or Martin have been involved in, although I believe Martin did mention a case sometime ago when the new partner was on benefits and the judge ordered SM to continue. At the other end of the spectrum it appears common place for cohabitation not to be a factor when the payer is a high earner. The courts have looked at the overall circumstances of the case rather than rely on the cohabitation clause in all the recent cases I\'ve come across when ending SM on cohabitation is challenged. Obviously cohabitation means expenses are shared reducing the recipients need and there would have to be a big discrepancy in incomes for SM to continue for there to be balance and proportionality so in many cases (most probably including the one in this thread) SM would end on cohabitation regardless of the clause. Apart from remarriage the only bar in relation to SM is under s28 MCA1973 which when applied prevents an extension to the term. As far as SM for joint lives is concerned most people, including some barristers, don\'t appreciate that the judge is directed only to limit the term where it can be established when in light of all the s25 MCA1973 criteria the recipient will be self sufficient. An order for joint lives doesn\'t preclude the cohabitation clause.

JillyC

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:33:36

\"...Finally, I dont think cohabiting affects SM level when they are the payer....the SM level is based upon the payers income and not his / her partner.\" I have been advised by my solicitor that as my ex is now remarried, he has effectively lowered his chances of stopping SM (which he wants to do) as the courts would look at his outgoings to decide whether he has a good case. Because he has married someone with no dependants and who works full time, his outgoings are effectively halved. So to some degree the SM level does include the new partner\'s contribution. My ex was threatening to stop the payment and last I heard was going for advice. But that was months ago and all is quiet now. Maybe he was advised against it . . .?! By the way, we have been divorced for 2 years, with two children of 6 and 5, and he earns in excess of £36,000 a year more than me.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

I think it\'s rather illogical to claim that if a man pays SM to his ex and she\'s cohabiting, then she and her np are living off the man and the np is a sponger. The ex is merely making a contribution towards her needs, isn\'t he?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

well not if the SM paid by the ex is funding the house etc in which the boyfriend is now living..... Still its all down to personal choice and whether the bloke has balls. Clearly there are a lot of new partners with no gonads....

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

But ignoring the issue of which house it is, imagine a situation where the ex and np are living on a total combined income of £30K but the ex also receives £2K annually in SM from her ex. Surely that has nothing to do with her np and doesn\'t suggest that he is in any way a sponger? In reality I would imagine most people simply accept what money they can get or are entitled to. So if the ex gets SM, her np isn\'t going to feel there\'s any principle involved in her getting or not getting it when she\'s lives with him. It\'s nothing to do with him and was sorted out between her and her ex long before.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Ah yes TD but I thought that the whole idea of SM was based on the payers ability to pay AND the recipients NEEDS?? In the scenario you just gave it sounds almost like the £2K is a sort of extra allowance. This £2K is bound to be used for things that the boyfriend benefits from?

Alisha

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:38:59

Well well, seems I\'ve fuelled a nice debate between you all. And a very informative one. To return to my initial problem, I\'m just trying to figure out how life will work, financially, if I re-partner. Because I am unemployed and struggling, like I never have before, to find work, my SM is essentially what I\'m living off. And the money my mother sends to help with the groceries. If I do move in with new partner, the assumption is that the children will be living in a family home again, so they will be better off. Not that I\'m doing a bad job now, but it is not the same. But how it feels is that I potentially need 2 men to support me: ex to keep helping out so I can provide for the children, and np will inevitably be helping because I won\'t worry so much about putting food on the table. It hardly feels like np would be sponging. He\'d be helping to give my children a better, more secure home environment. He keeps their mother happy and sane. And his child would have a family home to come to as well. But what a thought......needing the support of 2 men. If I felt more confident about my ability to sell my property, and about my ability to get a job, I\'d be less worried. In normal times, I can support myself financially. But as it stands, these problems are not going to go away any time soon. Not normal times at all. My worry is that if the SM stops, I would actually reconsider cohabitation because it would mean that, financially, I (and my children) would be very dependent on new partner. Even if I rent my property, assuming I can, the rent would cover the mortgage, and allow for a sinking fund to cover repairs and empty periods, but that\'s about it. So no income generated there. Not a good way to start a new relationship. I know this is not the worst problem ever to hit civilisation, but it still doesn\'t feel very good. Sounds like SM would stop. Only solution is to come to agreement with my ex, isn\'t it? Doesn\'t bode well...

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Alisha, I think you first need to check your consent order and see whether it says SM ends if you cohabit for 6 months or if it only mentions remarriage. Stuart, Alisha says she owns a flat which she would have to sell in order to buy somewhere of a suitable size to share with her np and children, so your argument that it\'s not fair if the np moves into the FMH and the ex still gets SM does not apply to Alisha\'s circumstances. Alisha, it strikes me that it\'s unwise to do anything which relies on your ex paying either CM or SM because his circumstances can change too, so the amount he pays may reduce due to him losing/changing jobs, not just affecting SM. Can I ask what you mean about the children being better off if you move in with your partner because they\'ll be living in a family home again or why they\'d have a more secure home environment? Also you say he\'d keep you sane and happy, but the benefits of that would have to be balanced against the potential disadvantages for them of having mum\'s np living in the family home, which they might not like. (They might be happiest alone with insane mum lol). Perhaps now is just not a good time to start cohabiting, due to your being unemployed, property hard to sell, your np going through divorce so not yet sorted out financially yet and the risk that you\'ll only be able to keep your head above water if your ex can continue to pay CM and SM. Once you\'ve (hopefully) got a job, you\'ll be more able to cope if your ex\'s payments stop or reduce, and over time the situation re property will (again, hopefully!) improve and your np\'s divorce finances will be settled. Could you perhaps just see your np a lot without actually selling up and buying anywhere together or cohabiting? I don\'t think you\'d be \"needing the support of 2 men\". You are bringing up your ex\'s children so he ought to be supporting you in that and CM isn\'t always enough. If you lived with your np, he\'d be sharing a home with you, so again it would be right for him to be contributing. Incidentally when you say you\'re living off SM, I assume you are also getting CM, Child Tax Credits and perhaps unemployment benefits so SM is only part of your incomings. Just pointing that out before Stuart comes back to tell you your ex is now supporting you entirely by paying SM lol! \"Ah yes TD but I thought that the whole idea of SM was based on the payers ability to pay AND the recipients NEEDS?? In the scenario you just gave it sounds almost like the £2K is a sort of extra allowance. This £2K is bound to be used for things that the boyfriend benefits from?\" I don\'t really see your point TBH Stuart. Cohabiting is likely to reduce the ex\'s financial needs so perhaps on that basis an ex could apply to court to reduce SM, but if a CO says SM stops on 6 months cohabiting, then that isn\'t looking at the recipient\'s actual needs but just assuming their needs are reduced. If it\'s based on needs then there shouldn\'t be an automatic assumption that cohabiting means it stops. I think the law comes from a time when a woman was expected to be supported by her h and if she divorced, he was expected to carry on supporting her until she remarried and then the new h was supposed to support her. It\'s been updated to include cohabiting but the basic rule of stopping if you cohabit/remarry still doesn\'t take into account actual needs. So if you want it to be based on actual needs, that would mean it was less likely to stop on cohabiting/remarriage, whereas you think it should always stop on coh/remarriage! I don\'t see how you can look at a total household income and decide that the np benefits from one particular bit of it. In any case some couples keep their income separately, so one could receive SM and allocate it to pay for essential clothing for the children which they\'d have otherwise gone without, so then the children would benefit rather than the np. People can arrange their finances in all different ways. Unless she literally hands over the SM to her np to spend down the pub on his own, I don\'t see that he\'s specifically benefiting from it.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Hang on though TD..... My whole point is that surely if someone is sure enough that they want to live with a partner then IMO its all or nothing. If it was a Alisha had never been married or it was a 1st relationship then there wouldnt be the luxury of having the SM safety net. It strikes me as funny how some women are happy to be rid of the ex hubby and be \"independent\" etc,etc,etc but yet still take their money... Tell me TD, what IS wrong with standing on your own two feet? If Alisha wants to cohabit then its just my belief that her new chap should take her on warts n all....

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

When you have children, it isn\'t just your \"own two feet\" you\'re looking after. You\'re looking after the children too. So is your idea of the PWC standing on her own two feet that she gets a contribution (CM) to the children\'s care and gets most of the responsibility both practical and financial whilst the NRP gets very little of it? I\'d say she was supporting HIM in such circumstances since they\'re his kids too! He ought to stand on his own two feet by doing his share of the childcare! I can\'t see that your other points make any difference to anything. So she wouldn\'t have got SM if she hadn\'t been married. So what? As she lives in a flat with two children, it doesn\'t sound like she\'s exactly living in luxury. And if her np wants her \"warts and all\" what\'s that got to do with whether she gets SM or not? If all he wanted was a woman with lots of money, presumably he\'d look for a childless woman with a large house.

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Stuart - you have a lovely turn of phrase, which makes the pwc sound a bit like a prize heifer! I think the more likely scenario is that nps end up subsidising the children of previous relationships. The NRP with an avg income is going to pay.. what? £50 p.w. for one child - hardly enough to cover roof, tax, clothes, heating, food, entertainment etc etc. Most of the single mums I know find CM doesn\'t even cover half their childcare bill. £ to a penny, your ex\'s new husband is subsidising your son - presumably that isn\'t too emasculating, as you seem not to have noticed.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

For once, Joyce, I think you\'re right. LOL Any EMPLOYED np who moves in is likely to be contributing financially to the children\'s needs in effect by his contribution to the joint family incomings - unless the mother allows him to live there and pay nothing. \"£ to a penny, your ex\'s new husband is subsidising your son - presumably that isn\'t too emasculating, as you seem not to have noticed\". Well to be fair, Stuart and other NRPs don\'t get a choice in the matter of the np moving in with their exes, do they? It could also work the other way around - if the NRP lives with someone who has a good income, the NRP may be able to afford holidays with the kids which would otherwise be too expensive, so even the NRP\'s np might be contributing to the kids\' needs. Not my ex\'s wife though, as she doesn\'t work!

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

The LOL refers to Joyce being right for once and not to what follows.

why?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:22:57

i remember on one of my other posts asking about the issue of sm on cohabiting etc and it set of a few comments then. i dont know how unusual kats sm is bvut certainly my solicitor too is talking about sm for life. i am however after a clean break so the overall amount may well be reduced. i think the simplist way regarding sm is to accept that both parents will, one day no doubt live with a new partner and this will therefor in time balance out financially anyway. in otherwords each new partner will contribute in some way financially towards the children either with the occasional treat, birthday gifts, christmas gifts, helping with homework, taking to the doctors, contributing towards a family holiday or a school trip, trip to cinema etc etc. the nrp will benefit from all this when the children visit if they also have a new partner. and although we didn\'t keep our finances separate i know many couples who do and it could simply be agreed that the new partner pays his share of everything but not take any of the sm money which could be put into a separate account although that seems a bit ridiculous when you consider what the children may gain from the new partner. the new partner may even drive and own a car and be able to take the children to the nrp instead of nrp having to collect them. the list goes on and many of these things are far more important than money. when you\'ve been married to someone with a lot of money and there\'s not enough substance to anything else you get to appreciate how little money actually means, especially when its money well spent keeping your family in tact as much as possible.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

I agree that there are many things more important than money, but the other side of the coin is that a np may be a disadvantage to the children, making them feel they no longer have a home where they feel comfortable so they leave as soon as they are able, etc. Having a stepparent may be a loss rather than a gain. I\'m not sure how true it is that both parents will one day no doubt live with a np that will benefit the children financially. That only applies if a parent lives with a np whilst the children are dependent. Some will, some won\'t. I don\'t plan to live with a np again ever and certainly not whilst I have a dependent child (he\'s 17). One of my friends is a single mum with a child the same age as mine. She\'s been a single parent since he was of pre-school age but has had a bf for 3 years and doesn\'t intend him to move in ever. My consent order is for Nominal SM payable only if I can\'t support myself due to my son\'s special needs and it\'s \"cancelled\" only if I remarry. It\'s kind of for life, but it\'s my son\'s life as well as mine. The solicitors wanted to include a cohabitation clause but both ex and I found that really offensive. It would mean that if I cohabited and then at a later time was again single and needed help with our son, I would no longer be entitled to ask my ex to pay SM because I\'d once cohabited. So he could get out of contributing towards providing a home for his son because of something I may have done years ago. To put it another way, I would have to choose never to cohabit as long as I and my ex and son live, in order to avoid the risk of that situation. Whilst the same applies to remarriage, I accept that because I have no choice and I object on principle to the restriction but don\'t believe I\'d ever feel the need to remarry.

why?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:22:57

i nderstand what you are saying. however, putting your principle aside ie: the fact that you have no intentions of moving someone else in. surely, your ex can still pay you sm irrelevant of any clause if he so wishes. he doesn\'t have to object to paying it just because an order has a clause in it. i have 3 very young children, 6, 4 and 18 months and i also have absolutely no desire to meet anyone and certainly no disire to go looking for a new partner let alone move anyone in. i want lots of time to devote to children, bringing them up with relationship values, help and support them emotionally and practically, with homework and clubs etc. they are just learning about life and too young to be expected to understand any 3rd party relationship. however. never say never. it may just happen through friendship and the children may love this new friendship but even then i\'m not sure i\'d move them in. i think i\'d be more likely to date for a very long time before introducing them and even then, it would be a long introduction purely as a friend and i\'d keep the intimate side of things for when children were with their dad. your son is 17 and at that age a child might be mature enough to understand relationships better, however i appreciate that your son has special needs and that has to be appreciated that those needs are indeed special.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Once again Joyce you have got it wrong....lol Im not talking about CM....Im talking about SM..... What never ceases to make me laugh my head off is the way mums are always complaining about how terrible and hard it is to bring up a child and yet will hang on to that child for all they are worth. My sons mother has come out with the same crap that good ol Joyce has come out with regarding her hubby supporting my son etc....but as soon as I suggest a change of residency she screams \"no way\". Thing is I have worked it out that I could reduce my hours, claim the tax credits and not ever bother my ex for a penny in CM..... My \"warts and all\" comment is simply about my belief that a new bloke living with his partner in her home should be paying and not allowing the ex hubby to pay for it. To do otherwise is a bit gutless. Still, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one as I really cant be bothered to argue the point further. So, over to you Joycie sweetie for the last word.....lol...

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Oh...when I said mums are always complaining I meant some mums....not all.

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Thanks Stuart - don\'t mind if i do. It makes no difference whether *you* are talking about CM or SM, the simple point is your son has financial needs, and you don\'t meet even half of them, and further your wife\'s new husband is making a contribution to a child which is not his. The fact that you have worked out you could reduce your hours and become dependnet on benefits from the state (and tax credits are benefits!) is hardly something to be proud of. I would be more impressed if you could support your son in your own right. It sounds like you\'re content for the taxpayer and your wife and her husband to maintain your son, whilst you make a token contribution. Fair enough - if you\'re comfortable with that, the law certainly allows you to do that. And I appreciate that you may be unable to find better paid work, or to work extra hours, or to manage on a lower % of your income... However, it does seem a bit rich to imply that a woman should be maintained by her latest bf (rather than that the father of the child she is caring for should share the cost implications of her caring role) - or to imply that men who live with women who receive SM are somehow emasculated - when it is YOU who is unable to make an equitable (i.e. 50%) contribution to your son\'s financial needs. JMO, but I am of course right.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

\"surely, your ex can still pay you sm irrelevant of any clause if he so wishes. he doesn\'t have to object to paying it just because an order has a clause in it\". Yes but I wanted to commit him to it whilst he was willing to be committed, by putting it in the consent order. He has remarried and may have more children. He may feel differently about contributing if he\'s got two young kids with the second hand oops I mean second wife. He has already made it clear to me that his priorities have changed as a result of having a new wife. \"What never ceases to make me laugh my head off is the way mums are always complaining about how terrible and hard it is to bring up a child and yet will hang on to that child for all they are worth\". I can understand why many mums might do that. They want to look after their children, no matter how hard it is. Bringing up my son is the hardest thing I\'ve ever done and in the right circumstances I\'d have been happy to share care 50-50 or be NRP but such circumstances have never arisen. Even when ex and I were a couple and he could have done his share or more than half, he wouldn\'t. Also, for a woman whose ex might be willing to care for the children properly, there must be a lot of pressure to feel that it is her task to bring up the children, as a result of how people see it and how she will see it if the man becomes PWC. A woman whose children don\'t live with her is viewed very negatively, perhaps as neglectful or unnatural for not wanting her children with her and will probably feel guilty and also uncomfortable when mentioning it to others, whereas a man who is NRP is seen simply as a man who is no longer with the children\'s mother.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

tea - I don\'t think ladies hold on to the kids for that reason alone - rather to stick the knife into the ex and keep on the gravy train... Jmo- but i am right...

Martin

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Simes: \"Consent orders are written by Counsel, not legislation, and certainly the ones I have seen say within 6 months of co-habitation, or marriage. (The usual triggers)\" The problem is the interpretation of what co-hab is, and when it has started. You could live together for two years before a DJ agreed that co-hab, as in \"living together as man and wife\" had commenced. The most recent case that I can think of that defies belief in such a way as this is the McCartney Mills saga... it was held that they didn\'t co hab before marriage! So Stidw\'s take on it is correct, \"Simes, it may be most consent orders do say SM ends on cohabitation but my point was most people don\'t go to court and there are no records kept so we don\'t know.\" (too many unknowns.) \"Most women, shock horror, are expected to be able to go and get a job and support themselves rather than get SM for life.\" Ahhh... but when the joint lives SM *has* been Ordered, it might have been taking into account the career sacrifice made, and that the home maker will *never* aspire, even with re-training, to a salary as high as the career builder has and will continue to enjoy... so the meal ticket for life will continue even after co-hab (and sometimes after re-marriage I kid you not) has begun.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Obi, I\'m sure some women do that too, but I was really responding to Stuart\'s point that women complain about how hard childcare is but still want to do it, which he suggests is a contradiction. But once you\'ve got children, the alternative is to not look after them yourself even though you find it hard, and very few women are willing to do that.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

It needs to be remembered SM isn\'t generally a factor for those on average or lower than average income and after a long marriage the starting point where a couple\'s resources exceed their needs is no longer \"reasonable requirements\" for maintenance but the \"yardstick of equality.\" And SM is awarded in light of all the s25 MCA 1973 factors, in particular the standard of living during the marriage. \" I don\'t think ladies hold on to the kids for that reason alone - rather to stick the knife into the ex and keep on the gravy train...\" A recent and very comprehensive report from Gingerbread and the University of Oxford challenges the perception that single parents commonly obstruct contact between children and their other parent. It found most parents struggle with contact but there are multiple determinants - attitudes, actions and interactions of all family members. (think they must have read my posts - lol) A common factor associated with the withdrawal of contact was threats by the NRP to keep the children.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

tea - I don\'t think ladies hold on to the kids for that reason alone - rather to stick the knife into the ex and keep on the gravy train... Jmo- but i am right...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Lol Obi. As you say just your opinion but that is because you are self obsessed and as a result still think your ex\'s reasons for being and doing revolve around you despite the fact you are no longer together. You may get over it one day. Yep I\'ve met a lot of single mothers (and fathers, this is not just about the \"ladies\") who are on the gravy train. Well I\'ve yet to meet one actually. Most struggle financially to make ends meet. They either struggle along on benefits supplemented by low paying part time work, are in low earning jobs, or if on higher incomes have to juggle working the long hours those incomes require with the demands of single parenting. As STIDW points out if their ex partners are low and middle income earners, i.e. the vast majority, then they won\'t be in receipt of SM but will be receiving CM commeasurate with their ex\'s income. Usually this doesn\'t go anywhere near meeting half their children\'s expenses. It may just be that single parents hold on to their kids as they love them and want to raise them until adulthood. I\'m sure Obi would welcome being a single pwc parent of his boys for that very reason. Although he is partnered so would not have the struggle of raising them single handedly. We as parents can moan about how hard it is though, it doesn\'t mean we love our children any less. Going back to the original post I think TD and Joyce may have a point about a np subsidising a child\'s expenses in the vast majority of cases. I suspect my ex subsidises his partners son as she does not work. I think its worth bearing in mind the starting point as being the \"yardstick of equality\" Its not the SM payee supporting the ex spouse rather that ex spouse getting what they were due from the marriage partnership to maintain the standard of living they were used to. Why should say Kat and her children live in a Council flat on benefits while her ex earns megabucks, lives in luxury and swans off on overseas trips as she stayed home and looked after the kids while he advanced his career? And more to the point why should his np and her children get the benefit of the hard work Kat put in supporting her ex so he could advance his career and maximise his earning potential? Surely some of that is due to Kat. So what if Kat meets a new bloke and moves him in. Can\'t she decide how she can spend her marriage settlement and on whom. It belongs to her. After all Mr Kat is doing just that with his court decided entitlement. I think what is confusing people here is the underlying assumption that a woman is a chattel and possession of a man so if she\'s yours you keep her. If not then sod her.JMO Kat sorry for using you as an example above but your case fitted to illustrate my point and the double standard.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Joyce....Do you get child benefit? This is a benefit paid for by the tax payer (of which I am one too) and unless you politely decline this money each week I suggest you shut your big fat hypocritcal gob! lol.... As it happens you dont know what I do or dont pay towards my son and YET AGAIN your assumptions demonstrate what an incredibly stupid woman you really are. Tell me love, what are all your qualifications in again? Talking crap? Dunno why Im even answering a post from such a poisonous person....

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:30:41

\"Dunno why Im even answering a post from such a poisonous person....\" Hmm Stuart, I wondered why you were responding too. Let\'s face it you ignore lots of other posters. Is it that Joyce touches a raw nerve? and is it so sensitive that you lose the ability to express your self in a civilised fashion?

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Excellent post Owl - I agree completely. The reality is that it is mothers who are generally economically disadvantaged by parenthood, and women who suffer economically on divorce. Stuart - Child Benefit isn\'t mean tested, and I have a child, so yes, I do receive it. However, as I am not eligible for any means tested benefits, my daug is supported by her parents\' earnings, and the State\'s £20 is a token, negible, contribution. With regard to your son, my educated guess is that it is his FATHER who is making the token, negible contribution. I may be making assumptions, but I think your reaction reveals that I am not far short of the mark. TBH though, I think there can hardly be a better use of taxpayers money than supporting children - the horror is our child poverty rate. However, I do find your suggestion that a few pennies in SM buys the right to control the mother\'s life completely obnoxious. And Stuart - calling me \"love\" is only demeaning to yourself. You clearly view women as objects to control and own, but from your past, it doesnt\' sound like it is an approach which has served you particularly well. Grow up.

why?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:22:57

i agree with owl regarding sm. it is surely the recipients share of the marriage. thats how i see it and im being made to feel as if somehow i dont have that right. i have a shareholding in my husbands business which is quite substantial and he currently pays me a salary into our joint accounts that i have never had the use of. he spent it all on himself, fast cars in excess of £100.000, racehorses, rolex watches. i didn\'t so much as get a nice piece of jewellery for birthdays, christmas or anniversaries. he would buy himself all these things without so much as consulting me. i discovered his very expensive rolex watch when it was on his wrist. whilst i put a lot of thought, time and energy into surprises for him i got nothing in return. our mortgage could easily have been paid off years ago but is infact largely outstanding due to his lifestyle. he has since we split spent in excess of £5,000 from our joint account on trips abroad for himself and £500 on jewellery for someone that was not me. could have been for himself of course. yet he feels he has the right to tell me not to waste money on a solicitor because this money could go to our children instead! i have spent on solicitor only one fifth of what he has spent on trips away for himself and my solicitor costs are certainly directed with the children in mind, his have not been. he is a very successful business and i have never worked for the business BUT it was me who put a roof over his head whilst he was an alcoholic living out the boot of his car. it was my income that supported us when he lost his job through alcohol. it was me who bought him his first ever computer which he learnt a lot from and now uses on a daily basis to run his business. i stuck by him through all this whilst he treated me terribly emotionally and mentally. he told many big lies. i had a full time job. it didn\'t pay well but i managed on it. who is to say where my career might have taken me by now had all my energy not gone on him and subsequently the full time care of our children. i might have been, like him, a very successful business woman. who has the right to say i wouldn\'t? afterall, he did. and he is the last person you would expect to be so successful given all his problems. so i think i played a huge part in getting him where he is now and since i didn\'t benefit from his business/income during marriage, i certainly will do now. shame it took a divorce for that to happen though eh? for a man who like to go around telling people he believed marriage is about sharing and divorce should always be 50/50, that was not my experience with him and now that we have split he is proving himself further for what he has always been. a liar whose image is so important to him, he will do and say whatever he has to to makr him look and feel like a better person. so, should i continue to look after our 3 very young children, unable to take on a job which pays enough to afford child care, unbable to claim benefits because we own a house and have savings. have no forseeable future with new partner whilst my husband continues his extravagant lifestyle, moving on with new partner, able to continue to grow his business and increase his income and share (or give that impression at least to new partner initially that he will share). should i feel guilty about expecting sm - no i don\'t.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

LOL ... Owl so mad ... Ex\'s with kids poor eh? State of play - Ex... 16 hours of work per week 200 quid, Work FAM tax credit 800 quid, my cm 300 quid, child ben 120 quid, D.L.A. 100 (work on the side I know she does) 200 quid.. total 1720 appx Me... 1850... So for 16-hours per week she earns the same as my 40 plus! And before you shout \'she has the kids for longer than you etc\' That\'s HER choice... I would love to have then more but she wont allow it...

Alisha

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:38:59

Hi All, Wow, what a debate this has fuelled. I find it interesting how it has strayed from the initial query, but somehow it has touched a nerve. I think the nerve is about how unfair it all is. And if we\'re all divorced, then we know. That\'s how it is. It is unfair. Since I started this, I\'d like to say something. Way back in the posts, Teadrinker says I should go back and look at my consent order, which I will. And TD also says that maybe my kids would prefer their mother single and insane. I wouldn\'t disagree with that. I think if I asked them today, that is what they would say. But change is part of life. I cannot protect them from that, and I cannot hold myself back because of a desire to keep things the same for their sake. Life is change. I\'ve lost the plot a bit, because of all the posts, but someone said something about not wanting to ever have a partner again, here it is: \"i have 3 very young children, 6, 4 and 18 months and i also have absolutely no desire to meet anyone and certainly no disire to go looking for a new partner let alone move anyone in. i want lots of time to devote to children, bringing them up with relationship values, help and support them emotionally and practically, with homework and clubs etc. they are just learning about life and too young to be expected to understand any 3rd party relationship.\" I can understand this. That\'s how I felt. And I was minding my own business when I got distracted by someone who, eventually, changed my mind. What the distraction made me realize was that raising my children on my own was perhaps not the best way to set a good example. What am I teaching them about human relationships on my own? They are not seeing the everyday compromise, debate, arguments, discussions, laughter, etc etc etc. BTW I don\'t want anyone to feel bad because they\'re not doing this. There is a time and place for everything. Seeing a parent strong on their own is also a good example. And, after divorce, time alone is a good thing. But I suppose I feel frustrated because, like so many others, my children make it hard for me to earn as much as I could if I didn\'t have children. I resent needing financial support. I\'ve since remembered that during the divorce proceedings, my ex was so angry about having to provide SM. I can, and could, understand this. I am capable of supporting myself, but not myself + 2 children. And the minimum CM is not enough, so I wasn\'t going to walk away from the SM. At the time, I suggested that if the idea was so repulsive, he could simply give the same amount of money, but all in CM, divided equally between the 2 children. If calling it CM made it more palatable, then why not? My solicitor didn\'t like this. And it didn\'t happen. But if it had, then I would not have to factor this into my plans for future cohabitation. So why is there SM? How many people on this website are divorced without children? I confess, I don\' know, but most of the things I\'ve read involve children. I maintain that if I decide to cohabit, the children will benefit. But my new partner should not be financially responsible for my children. Nor should I be financially penalized for choosing to cohabit, which is quite frankly how it feels. If the financial support I received was entirely child-centric, as it should be, then any decisions I made/make about who I live with would be made without worrying about how much money I do or don\'t get. In any case, not planning on changing any living arrangements anytime soon. Was just thinking ahead, and wondering how it would all work. It will, I\'m sure. I just need to get a nice part time job.....

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi your ex works more than 16 hours a week. Looking after children is work just unpaid. If you can\'t get the concept of unpaid work then that is sad. Whilst you may like to have your children more presumably you are not available to have them in the 40 hours you work so you would have to pay childcare costs. Unless of course you choose to give up work to look after your boys fulltime. Since you are cohabiting then presumably you would need to live off your np. I\'m not sure what you would be up for in benefits in addition to this. I appreciate you are very embittered about it and feel jealous of her financial arrangements. But given she still earns less than you and lives alone and hence has no-one to share the costs of maintaining a household with it is clear that she is not on the pigs back. I\'d stop totting up and obsessing about her perceived financial riches if I were you and move on if I were you. She does not have to alter her current life arrangements to meet your need to not feel aggrieved about finances. What you are saying is let me have the kids more as I don\'t like that you the fact that you get government support for them. I want that for me. Thats all very self serving Obi.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

\"So for 16-hours per week she earns the same as my 40 plus! And before you shout \'she has the kids for longer than you etc\' That\'s HER choice... I would love to have then more but she wont allow it...\" Regardless of why she looks after the kids or whether she has a choice in that or not, what does it matter that for her 16 hours of paid work plus many many hours of unpaid work she earns the same as you earn for 40+? If you were both doing exactly the same job, but she worked for 16 and you for 40, then that wouldn\'t be fair. But she doesn\'t. If you want to compare your wage to anyone, then compare it to someone who does a similar job and similar hours. Otherwise it doesn\'t make sense. BTW if I compared my hours of work and childcare to my ex\'s hours of work and childcare and then compared our total incomes, he\'s on about 5 times as much as me whilst doing far less hours.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

\"What the distraction made me realize was that raising my children on my own was perhaps not the best way to set a good example. What am I teaching them about human relationships on my own? They are not seeing the everyday compromise, debate, arguments, discussions, laughter, etc etc etc. BTW I don\'t want anyone to feel bad because they\'re not doing this. There is a time and place for everything. Seeing a parent strong on their own is also a good example. And, after divorce, time alone is a good thing\". I\'ve heard that argument used before about showing the kids an example of relationships by having a np when the parents are no longer together. But I think the example of human relationships and everyday discussions in the family home that the kids need is from their two parents or other family members, not mum or dad\'s np. I wouldn\'t want my child to have to put up with a non-family member permanently sharing his family home with us. I agree about SM. If SM is paid because the PWC can\'t support the children without it, then it doesn\'t make sense that it should end just because she has a np. It isn\'t the np\'s role to financially support the kids instead of the ex.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

\"he could simply give the same amount of money, but all in CM, divided equally between the 2 children. If calling it CM made it more palatable, then why not? My solicitor didn\'t like this.\" Sol won\'t like it because it is not enforceable.

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

STIDW, couldn\'t a consent order simply give a figure for CM which he\'d agree to and then it would be legally enforceable?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

LL, I make no secret of the fact that I view Joyces posts as mostly a load of bollox. She preaches at people who are hurting without any experience of what they might be feeling. She is a cheat. She helped destroy a marriage and believes that she has done nothing wrong. She constantly reminds people that she is \"educated\" and yet demonstrates no education at all. Oh. yes, there is also the other small matter whereby she accused me on another thread of being a paedophile.... So I suppose yes I dont have much time for lovely Joyce.....

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

TD, The courts do not normally have jurisdiction over CM and cannot impose it or vary it. The problem with a consent order is that although it\'s legally binding and CM payments can be enforced after the order has been in place for one year either party may ask the CSA to carry out an assessment, payments are reduced and the court order in relation to CM ceases to have effect.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

To add another point.... Joyce has often written some very disgusting things to people - the aforementioned paedophile comment in addition to her wishing gang rape upon some other poor woman.... Yet here she sits on high preaching at others like some sort of expert on all things. Her latest comment about the child benefit being a \"token negligible\" amount is very insulting to those PWC who perhaps rely on such a small some. Perhaps the best way of dealing with her diatribe is simply to ignore her cancerous out pourings of utter shit.

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

But Obi - I think you miss the point - your ex hasn\'t got wages that reflect the job she does - after all, plenty of women care for children 24/7 and don\'t get tax credits or dla etc... she is receiving benefits to provide her with the means to survive.... If looking after your chidren was her (paid) employment, she would however be running foul of the working time directive, and earning far less than the miminum wage. I find the whole thread quite perplexing - the predominance of female pwcs simply reflects that mothers adopt the lion\'s share of childcare. Yet instead of acknowledging that women have thrown themselves on their career swords, and being grateful for the care they\'ve shown their offspring - it seems there\'s a breed of nrps who instead want to remodel the stay-at-home-mum as themselves a burden. Now if nrps did had to meet the real financial cost of half the childcare - well, there\'s a thought...

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

my ex is a qualified teacher... she only works part time because she is BONE IDLE... as you dont know her- you couldnt know that of course... she only wants the kids because she thinks i am going to REDUCE the CM if i have them more... well if looking after kids is such hhhhhaaarrrdddd work then she could let me look after them more eh? i dont mind... isnt it funny that the people on this board that have their kids with them feel they can justify anything they do with the ol\' \'childcare cost blag...\' simple - left the nrps look after the kids more? people that have their kids have NO IDEA what its like to be PREVENTED from seeing them... ergo - you can be objective about all aspects of the problem - as a wise man once remarked- \'objectivity increases in direct proportion from your distance to the problem\'... oh and Joyce- i lost the ability to feel sorry for my exs predicament a long time ago - mostly due to the fact she is responsible for it... she can earn more money ANYTIME she wants- by allowing me to look after them more? nahhh... she wont because she hates me- and this is the easiest way to upset and hurt me... career swords...lol... dont make me laugh... stay at home mum!!>!??!? HA! my ex os more of a \'LYING IN BED\' type... as to meeting the cost- she has my f****ing house, my car and 20% of my salary - shall i just send her my F*****ing shirt too?

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Well if your ex is bone idle, whose looking after the kids? I\'d love to have my ex look after our son more. I\'m not sure how you do it when the other parent is not willing. Not so simple, is it? I could literally leave our son on his dad\'s doorstep and he\'d tell him to walk back home. I agree, people that have their kids probably have no idea how it feels to be prevented from seeing them, but I also think that NRPs often have no idea what it\'s like being the main carer and think it\'s easy, such as your comment above about your ex getting similar pay to you overall for only doing 16 hours. The house and car were marital assets, as much hers as yours, so now she is sharing them with the kids, and you pay just 20% of your salary towards the most important thing in your life, Would you honestly choose to pay less towards their upkeep?

Teadrinker

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Obi, I\'ve just noticed that you say you know your ex also earns £200 for work \'on the side\' as well as her official 16 hour job, so in fact you know she works considerably more than 16 hours a week in paid work!

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you are obviously very bitter and angry. \"Well if your ex is bone idle, whose looking after the kids?\" Following on from that if she is bone idle how come she chooses to work 16 hours a week, and if you are right that she earns an additional 200 quid a week presumably shes working up to another 16 hours. So here is this woman working up to 32 hours a week (8 hours less than you) looking after your two sons in the time she has them outside of school and work hours and running a household siglehandedly without the help you get from your partner. Sorry Obi that does not equate to bone idle in anyones reckoning but yours. I suggest you do send her your shirt as it may help her pay the mortgage on HER house(not your house Obi, you no longer own it) or the running expenses on HER car. (again you no longer own it,you traded off on that to retain the pension, remember), the house and car your sons have the benefit of. The phrase that stood out for me was \"Me 1850 quid\" You have 1850 quid to spend on just you, the three of them have 1720 quid to go between the three of them. You may choose to support others who choose to be dependant on you, i.e. your np and her children out of your income but that doesn\'t mean you have a right to bemoan the fact that you have to pay out to support the two dependants who are legally entitled to your support(your sons). \"she can earn more money ANYTIME she wants- by allowing me to look after them more? nahhh... she wont because she hates me- and this is the easiest way to upset and hurt me...\" Who says she wants to earn more money or is upset about the amount she has. Its you that is upset about that not her. And even if she did allow you to look after them more, you can only look after them outside of your 40 hour working week. That leaves her finding more work in the weekends or nights when you have them.There is not a lot of work for a trained teacher outside of school hours. Obi I\'m not sure how your ex has responded to your request for more contact but here is a suggestion. If you honestly believe the fact that she fears the CM payable to her would be reduced is the barrier to her agreeing to increased contact then offer not to go to the CSA and seek to get your CM reduced. Remove that fear and barrier. Only you can do that, its in your hands. CM will remain as it is if you don\'t seek to get it changed through the CSA Sorry Obi but as a fellow nrp I find your attitude disturbing. I have no idea or give a thought to what my ex now earns. However I hope he earns well as that improves the living standard of my son who lives with him. I suspect lately he is not earning as well as he has been (he\'s self employed) due to the recession and as a result I am funding more of my son\'s expenses. It doesn\'t bother me as that is what loving and caring parents do. I hope you can resolve your bitterness and anger to move forward. Start by owning it as yours and stop blaming your ex and making her responsible for your attitude. And Joyce I find myself agreeing that this thread is perplexing.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"people that have their kids have NO IDEA what its like to be PREVENTED from seeing them... ergo - you can be objective about all aspects of the problem - as a wise man once remarked- \'objectivity increases in direct proportion from your distance to the problem\'...\" I do have every idea what its like Obi but never during the process did I see a need to berate, get angry or feel bitter towards my ex about the money he receives to finacially support our son. It did teach me to put such things in proportion. Its only money, why worry about it? Spending time with your kids is far more important. I\'m sorry you didn\'t gain the same insights and choose to be so embittered. \"oh and Joyce- i lost the ability to feel sorry for my exs predicament a long time ago - mostly due to the fact she is responsible for it...\" So were you prepared to give up your job on the birth of your sons Obi and sacrifice your career advancement? Did you make that an option for her? No one is asking you to feel sorry for your ex\'s predicament Obi. They are just saying you should not be angry and bitter about finanacially supporting your sons. It sounds like your ex doesn\'t feel sorry for herself but is carving out an existence for herself using her own resources and the government support available to her. It doesn\'t sound like she is asking for your sympathy in any case. I think its great that each of you has been able to move on financially after your divorce. She has her own home and can afford to take the boys home to poland and on ski trips regularly. You have your own home and want to go to court so you can take the boys on overseas holidays regularly. You need to be grateful for that.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

she is a teacher so the school looks after them yes? Oh no I have just realized you are both right and I have lots of things I should be thankful to my lovely ex for: 20,000 quids worth of sol debt Upset children high blood pressure To answer why she works 16 hours - because that is the max you can work to get the most out of the tax credit system. LOL that means that you all are paying for her to sit at home for the rest of the week doing nothing...still it\'d yout money... No owl- she hasn\'t got her own house she has mine. I pay more than the CSA asks - they only want 200 because of the level of contact. As to her reply re more contact- I think that might not pass moderation. I repeat - I will swap with ANY pwc no matter how poor- how lonely- how bitter- how career deprived LOL what a joke... To livecwith my sons and see them every day is worth all ofvthat \'suffering\'.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sorry biology prevents me from having kids- blame the fish for that one... The predicament I refer to was being on her own. Not having children. I lived with her for 7 years... She was / is bone idle.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

While she teaches the school does look after them Obi, just like while you police the school looks after your children for you. Thats the same for all parents when their children are at school, its paid childcare. Outside of that its unpaid childcare and thats what you ex does when she isn\'t teaching, provides unpaid childcare for your children. I don\'t hear her complaining about that, its you that is complaining and feel its unfair. How dare you devalue her in that way. Obi, I don\'t pay her to sit at home for the rest of the week doing nothing (literally for I am not a UK taxpayer) but I do contribute to many NZ pwc\'s and married parents Family assistance (our equivalent of working tax credits). I am happy to support parents to look after their children and would rather support them to do it than have my money go into government subsidised childcare where children are cared for by strangers. I am also happy to support hard working lower income families and their children to have a decent living standard. We all benefit from that. Yes Obi she does have her own house, its only you that thinks its yours. The law and our societal standards say something different objectively to the way you subjectively feel. Uou may need to catch up, get over it and move on. Obi if you swapped being pwc with your ex you would not see your children whenever you wanted. You like she would only see them in your prescribed contact time just like it is for your ex now. The time the boys were with her you could not just see them whenever you wanted. Just like thousands of pwc you would not see them every day. unless of course as revenge you sought to deny contact at your whim and did not follow court ordered contact )which given an overall lack of trust in you your ex would no doubt seek in such a circumstance) In short you are wishing for a shangri-la you can never have and getting angry about it. And why do you think your ex is suffering or that we are saying that she is? She is just getting on with the business of being a single pwc. She won\'t be on the pigs back, life will have its financial, social and emotional challenges just like they do for you. Its you that is green with envy though. It can\'t be doing you any good.

evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

Individual situations do not necessarily reflect most situations. I wouldn\'t say I was a fantastic housekeeper, but I work a 47.5 hour week in term time, reducing to a heady 37.5 hour week in the school holidays, and my ex also now has a job (finally!) but does no childcare whatsoever and pays very little to support his children. I\'ve always believed in equality, and when we divorced we had pretty much a 50/50 split, but now I wish I had gone for more because I knew he was irresponsible with money. What I didn\'t know was he would just abandon his kids once I stopped arranging things myself. Obi et al, there are all sorts of unfairnesses in the world. I am more intelligent and better qualified than my ex, and I could have had a career. You can laugh as much as you want, but the choices we made as a couple have had a permanent effect on my earning power. I don\'t earn a poor salary at all, and I have benefited from tax credits, but its how far one salary has to stretch. How much you earn is no indicator of how hard you work. I work bloody hard, and then I come home and start again, like many parents. No, Obi, I wouldn\'t swap with you, because I can see the positives in my life. Its probably best if you try and concentrate on the positives in yours as well. To my mind, re the discussion re benefits, benefits come with a high price, and I have done my utmost to earn my money rather than be given it. However, it is children that we should be thinking of, and anyone that resents their children being brought up to the best of their ability really shouldn\'t have become a parent in the first place. Just think of bilbo, who comes on the board every so often, desperate to find a way to stop supporting his children. We really do attack the wrong targets on here at times

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Obi.....you\'re wasting your breath mate.... The cauldron is bubbling away.....lol....

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl- i bought the house- lived in it before we met... it was my house... oh ok- you dont pay uk tax ergo you dont pay her etc... cograts on that victory... the comment- \'you couldnt see them when you wanted...\' shows what a tenuous grip on reality you have owl... on a contact week I see them for 2 full days - one half day and 3 hours on a wednesday... on none contact weeks- just 3-hours... that equates to - 124 hours per month - against her 596 hours... i think she is way out in front on that one eh? 4 times as much contact per month- she sees the kids more in ONE week than i do in ONE month!!! you know what i cant wait for? the day when the boys decide to live with me and she has to pay ME cm.... i will be £600 pcm better off... lol... then we shall see what her reaction is... lol... getting cm out of my ex ... it would be easier to get a blowie off the Pope... as to evr - she has a point - I mean look at ER... what kind of dad DOESNT see his kids when the pwc is so ok with it??? one that wants to stick in the knife...thats what... as to suffering- she want revenge on me- for leaving her, and she dont care who gets in the way... or who else is upset... oh owl- i offered to sign an agreement in court that i would not be reducing CM... she told me to stick it up my ass... yes i do have envy- envy for the 200 hours she sees them i dont... pwcs just dont get it...

evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

I realise I was posting when I had just woken up! What I was trying to say was that most of us aren\'t doing things wrong - we\'re just muddling through as best we can. Yes, there are some bad parents of both genders, but Obi, just because your ex wife hurt you doesn\'t mean that all pwcs have it good. Its not a case of pwcs not getting it, its both sides not being able to walk a mile in someone else\'s shoes (a good idea - then you\'ll be a mile away and you\'ll have their shoes!) Stuart, your comments are sexist and unhelpful. There is nothing witch-like in putting your views across. In fact you have done more than your fair share of stirring on this post, so maybe you should be wearing the pointy hat.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi I\'m a nrp who doesn\'t have the envy you do. I do get it. Its not easy but as a pwc I also know thats not easy either. I have walked in both sets of shoes and experienced both. Each has their good and bad aspects. \"No, Obi, I wouldn\'t swap with you, because I can see the positives in my life. Its probably best if you try and concentrate on the positives in yours as well.\" Exactly what I do evr and I\'m happy as a result. \"oh ok- you dont pay uk tax ergo you dont pay her etc... cograts on that victory...\" Not a victory Obi just a statement of fact but I also followed that with a statement of fact that I would not feel resentful if I did. I\'d be happy to that just as I\'m happy that my NZ taxes pay for people in similar circumstances here. Its you that has the issue with your taxes going to working tax credits, not me. I see that as small minded and selfish of you. ( and BTW did you get benefits when married to your ex?? or did you steadfastly turn them down as that was beneath you?) t\"he comment- \'you couldnt see them when you wanted...\' shows what a tenuous grip on reality you have owl...\" Not a tenuous grip on reality Obi just a statement of fact. Given you have always claimed you would NEVER deny contact then that must be a statement of fact. Because if thats the case when the children were with your ex in her allotted contact time you would not be able to just click your fingers and see your children when you wanted. You would still have to come to terms with the separation anxiety you seem to suffer from and would need to overcome that disability. \"you know what i cant wait for? the day when the boys decide to live with me and she has to pay ME cm.... i will be £600 pcm better off... lol... then we shall see what her reaction is... \" How very sad for your boys that their father only views them in monetary terms. Who is seeing them as money earning chattels now Obi. Sorry you said the words that portray you as that. And you WON\'T be 600 quid better off because you will have to feed your kids in the 596 extra hours you will have them as well as pay for electricity costs etc and meet all their schooling and ancillary expenses. You likely will be worse off financially now but you of course will feel better as you will have the control you crave. the control you feel aggrieved that you don\'t percieve you have now. Getting CM out of your ex is easy Obi, you simply apply to the CSA when and if you become pwc. Given your comment above and your eagerness for money I bet you are onto it as soon as you ever get enough contact hours to deem you the pwc! If you don\'t like the current contact arrangements follow through with your stated intention of applying to Court to change them. Have you done that yet or do you prefer to moan and feel sorry for yourself?

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

interesting- you are doing what she does/did... talk down to me from a perceived higher moral/intellectual position. what bens? as i work for a living- i GOT/GET NOTHING from my gov... I dont like it- i dont like how you always take her side in anything i say- you are predjuced plain and simple. Predjudiced against me personally. I suspect that no matter what bizarre actions or situation my ex would create- you would defend her as you have above... but since you are so fond of logic... if i thought of my sons as cash cows- why spend 20k to try to see them? surely its cheaper not too? no pressies/hols/etc... i care about them- not how much they can save me... its no secret i would never ask her for CM if they lived with me- i can look after myself without any help from her. i have too much self respect for that. i have done what i have been advised to do re court- i have sent her the document i am submitting to court- i am waiting for my date now... its not about control- its about what THEY want... they want to live with me... not her... if my sons told me that they are happy with the sit as it is (eg- this is the first weekend i have seen them for 3-weeks)... i would stop court action in its tracks... i dont mind paying for my sons... i love them.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi there is no loss of respect in expecting your child\'s other parent to provide financial support for their children. Its sad that you think to expect that is lacking in self respect. You are not helping her by paying CM , you are making a token contribution to your childrens upkeep. It will not cover anywhere near half their costs, you ex sees to the amount you can\'t or choose not to contribute. And yes you still moan about the fact you pay that meagre amount and spout bitter vitriol about how unfair things are for you. You say you don\'t mind well start acting like you don\'t mind and stop the bitter outbursts because thats inconsistent with your last sentence in the post above Sorry Obi but show some more respect for yourself but most of all show some more respect towards your sons. Most self respecting nrp\'s graciously support their children but you have to berate your ex. Thats not the mark of a self respecting father. Presumably when your children were living with you you and your then wife claimed child benefit. One assumes that a child benefit comes into your current household also. I\'m not talking down to you Obi, but you ARE demeaning your ex for moaning about the money she receives each week when in fact YOU are the one moaning, not her. I\'m simply pointing that out. Apply the standards you expect of her to yourself. I didn\'t say the court action is about control. I said that you don\'t like the fact that you hand over 300quid a week to her so she can support your sons. You would rather control that yourself. And you don\'t like that fact that the time you AND your ex see your children are subject to court ordered control. In short you struggle with the lack of control you have generally. And lastly what bizarre suituation has your ex created now? Working up to 32 hours a week, claiming the government support she is entitled to, expecting the CSA CM payment from her son\'s\' father. Its hardly bizarre Obi, I\'d hazard a guess that over half the posters on this board do the same. Its the stuff of being a pwc.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sorry, but wtf are you talking about? half the costs!!! lol- you are OFF your trolly!!! i could do it easy!!! and have done!! remember I lived with her when she DIDNT WORK AT ALL!!!! i supported 4- FOUR not 3- FOUR people on my money!!! in that house too! self-respecting father... so now you are saying i am a poor dad too... lol you really do dislike me eh? but its ok my wise (not) feathered orni-phile... if you READ my posts - i dont mind paying her the money- its never been an issue- in fact i pay more than the CSA say- as i think its too low... I buy the boys clothes, shoes and all of the other things a NORMAL parent does... there is only ONE issue I have - not with the settlement- i got my pension... and that with the amount of time i SEE them... and i would rather spout bitter vitreol than the bullshit you give as \'advise\'... or as i call it... talking down to me- trying to make me feel bad about how i conduct my life as a father - a person etc... demeaning- who cares? she is the biggest bitch in the known universe... i dont expect anything from her- she is vile...

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i will swap in a cold hard moment...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, if you want to meet half the costs of your sons upkeep and think you can then DO IT NOW. You are not doing that now, your ex is meeting over half the costs of their upkeep but you just sit there and accuse her of being bone idle. Thats a load of tosh and demeaning and insulting, you are talking her down, another person , your son\'s mother. How dare you! Yes you did provide financial support for 4 people but you did not do that as a single parent. She was rthere too and don\'t spout further insults and tosh to say that she stayed in bed all day and completely neglected a baby and toddler even when you were working. No one believes that tosh but you Obi. If your problem with her is that you do not see the boys as often you want keep your vitriolic spoutings to that. Stop moaning about the fact that you pay 20 % of your wages towards the upkeep of your sons because thats what you are doing and thats not fair towards your sons. If you don\'t mind paying stop moaning and expressing anger about it. If I talk down to you its because I find your attitude to another human being who demeaning and insulting. If insulting their mother and minimising and undermining the effort she put as as their pwc is the best you can do then you are not doing very well by your sons. Get over your own hate and anger issues. Get over your bitterness and resentment. Your sons will thank and love you for it. Much of this bitterness stems from your underlying mysoginistic views. You don\'t value the unpaid work and support that (mainly) woman provide. You believe that to accept a monetary payment from anyone demasculates you You believe that you have a god given right to get whatever you want when you want and any woman should acquiesce to your requests. All of that leaves you fuming in rage when a woman doesn\'t quite agree with your deeply held underlying values or holds differing ones and has the audacity to express that. Has it ever occurred to you that those views are outdated and archaic in a modern society Obi? I know you love your boys, its your underlying deeply held attitudes that stopping you from moving past your anger and rage. It may be time to look at whether those attitudes are appropriate.

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Doesn\'t this all just boil down to divorce is crap? Obi - just going on what you\'ve said - couldn\'t your ex have a similar raft of complaints. Since being left by her H, she has been forced onto benefits and forced to look for work when previously she was able to be a stay at home mum. Her contact with her own children has been reduced, partly because she can no longer afford to stay at home for them, and partly because she is excluded from your contact times - which wasn\'t her choice. I\'m not saying you necessarily shouldn\'t have left - and I appreciate you feel it was your perfect right to do so - but as you believe your position is poorer because of it, so may your ex. I appreciate that you pay more than the CSA demands - but £300 pcm is only £10 per day, or £5 per day per child. Maybe I\'m extravagant, but I find it hard to believe that reflects anything like the true cost of raising a child. I\'m trying to work back from the figures you gave - surely a £200 CSA liability means you only earn about £21k - that can\'t be right for a detective, can it? But lets not split hairs... in the UK, households with under £60K-ish are eligible for some means tested benefits (working tax credits are benefits). So when you were together, you weren\'t solely supporting your family anyway. The reality is that you were probably always dependent on the state, and that the decision to break up your family has been disasterous financially. The state is picking up a bigger share (no big deal tbh) but the amoutn of cash available to raise your boys has fallen and your wife is having to pick up work on the edge of the labour market. I certainly wouldn\'t fancy swapping with your wife - your envy of her financial sitaution is misplaced. CM will only last while the children are young - she won\'t be accruing any pension against her work on the side, and claiming benefits is miserable, and dependent on having children in the family. Whilst you are hopefully climbing the ladder, paying into a pension and keeping skills up to date etc, your wife may find herself in a very insecure position once she has brought up her children. For you, on the other hand, all your liabilities will disappear, and what is already a larger income (divided by 1 not 3), will be yours, all yours!

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

well owl- since you know NOTHING about what went on in my \'marriage\'... you may be forgiven for thinking you know it all... however, since she DID often lie in bed all day- and I often came home to continue caring for my sons... you are the one talking CRAP here... we were talking about finance- can i provide for my sons on my money without her? yes... you say no- well you dont know what you are talking about... tosh- ? so ONCE MORE you call me a liar... fuck you - is the appropriate response, i would say... mysoginist ? no.. mys-owl-inist? YES! has it ever occurred to you -you are talking out of your bottom? joyce- if you like i can post my bank details so you can see the payments? i earn 21k net... Police do not earn as much as people think... and i did not claim bens- i did not qualify for them... she couldnt claim for them anyway- she wasnt a british citizen then... teaching on the edge of the labour market? lol... keep that one to yourself... i would swap in a moment...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Well Obi go ahead and provide all your son\'s expenses without her. DO IT NOW. If you know you can go ahead and do it. Pay over the full amount of their upkeep. Pay for all their expenses, the full cost of keeping them. But no, knowing you can meet their full upkeep you drag your ex off to Court to get the previously agreed CM reduced to CSA levels. So your ex and the state now takes on the greater share of the costs of your sons upbringing while you sit moaning about the meagre amount you pay. Big man you are aren\'t you. What a hero! All self supporting self sufficient men should look up to you! You do the opposite of what you claim you can do. I judge you by your actions and think you are talking hypocritical shite. Ring the benefits department and cancel your sons DLA, let them know you are now going to meet the costs of working tax credits and the child benefit and lift that burden on the taxpayer you claim to feel so sorry for. Go on be the man you claim you are and LIVE your principles. How about dividing your 1850 quid by 3 and handing over the 1200 odd quid due to your two sons? Or maybe you could just be a man and meet half the costs of their upkeep. That would ease the burden on the taxpayer you currently impose on them by your unwillingness to voluntarily meet that cost. Sorry Obi how did a man on 21k net not qualify for working tax credits and the child benefit. You are a british citizen as are your children so you were eligible for them. Its you that is talking out of your bottom. So when you were married your boys did not receive the child benefit or DLA? Did you on principle refuse to claim them? I\'m sure you would swap to being pwc in a moment. That does not mean you will be better off financially than you are now. Objectively you will be worse off and if you live your above stated principles you will not claim any benefits to supplement your income. Good luck working fulltime shelling out for childcare, supporting yourself and two children, plus subsidising your np and her children financially on 21k net without taking anything from the taxpayer. If you ever get that opportunity I fully expect you will be on here bemaoning the fact that your ex doesn\'t give you any financial support whilst saying you wouldn\'t demean yourself to take any. Now none of that makes sense of course but you passive aggressives are like that.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

And Obi, I wouldn\'t post any passwords to your internet banking so that Joyce can see you statements online and verify your annual net income. I\'m know Joyce would have more integrity than to use them but you may find by doing that you have acted illegally and in breach of the contract with you bank. You also open yourself up to being an easy target for widespread fraud big time. Not a good look for a copper and I thought you would have more intelligence than to suggest it. I think the sterotype of the \"dim copper\" is totally unjustified but please don\'t add fuel to the fire by reinforcing that sterotype. :-)

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

\"In fact you have done more than your fair share of stirring on this post, so maybe you should be wearing the pointy hat.\" Perhaps you would like to qualify that statement insofar as the so called \"stirring I have done?\" All I have done is engage Joyce. I make no secret of the fact that I think her posts are shite. I will never forgive nor forget her accusing me of being a danger to children. And anyone who thinks it ok for such a thing to be said can go hang......

Kat007

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:05

Wow nothing else just Wow

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl , first I had no knowledge of tax credits. Like most working people (all my life) I have NEVER claimed benefits at all - only paid out... As I say WTF are you talking about? I did not take (drag) my ex to court over CSA payments... She TOOK me to court remember? So I guess I \'dragged\' her to court in the first place ? Too ? To see my own kids that she stopped me seeing? Forgot that? She is greedy no more - no less... I don\'t care what you say owl - you gave ALWAYS empathized with her and no matter what I post you always post the exact opposite ... Why you would empathize with a woman that verbally and physically abused me for years then continues to resist all attempts for some kind of normal contact with my sons is beyond me- I suppose that says more about you than anything written so far.. Calling me a liar directly and plain is a positive step for you though.. I mean at least you have finally had the guts to admits it eh? You call me a passive aggresive? You are another abuser. As to the bank details... LOL I would only show the figures.. And 21k is the NET figure... Not the figure tax is based on.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

its not about being better off you idiot- it\'d about seeing your kids ...

Kat007

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:05

Seems like this thread has run it\'s course as people are being abusive towards each other again rather than supporting and giving advice to the person who posted first. Don\'t get me wrong all for healthy debate on here but mud slinging doesn\'t really give a good impression, so How about we wrap this one up now and move on. Thanks for all your posts good and bad and if anyone has any other useful info for Alisha I am sure she would love to hear from you. Obi, I was going to post and ask how you are as you have not been on for a while and I was worried about you, I hope you are well and the boys are ok and your not killing yourself at work.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you were paying CM by consent order over and above CSA rates. After a year you applied to get CM reduced to CSA rates, i.e to 20% of your salary. You posted that as fact. Facts don\'t lie Obi and you can\'t run from them. So don\'t wtf me. You deliberately sought to pay less towards your children\'s upkeep despite claiming on here that you can keep them without your ex\'s assistance and are happy too. YOUR ACTIONS DO NOT BEAR THAT OUT SO DON\"T BE SUCH A HYPOCRITE AND CLAIM YOU ARE THE MAN. You are not you took the first opportunity to reduce CM. And then to make things worse you have the audacity to come on here and berate your ex and call her greedy as she expects you to contribute CM when in fact she pays far more than you towards the upkeep of your sons. How dare you project your greediness in seeking to reduce CM onto her. So answer my question Obi, did your sons receive child benefit and DLA whilst you were married? No I don\'t empathise with your ex. I do find your assertions of your willingness to pay full upkeep towards your sons at odds with your actions. You don\'t do that and in fact have sought to do the opposite. So I object to your double standards, its you I\'m challenging Obi. It has nothing to do with empathising or sympathising with your ex wife. Although I do have considerable admiration for all pwc\'s who bring their children up and do paid work as well. I include my ex who I don\'t much like in that. The fact that your ex verbally and physically abused you for years does not give you the right to demean her and call her bone idle when she is supporting and looking after your sons. Thats downright abusive of you. Passive agressives say one thing Obi but do another. Thats what you are doing here. You claim to be the great guy who is happy to support your children fully but then you act differently. The evidence, you posting on here moaning about CM and you actually seeking to reduce the CM you had previously agreed to by consent. And when called on it you retract a little and deny that you were moaning. Its a very common passive agressive trait. As in I don\'t mind paying CM ex wife, I\'m happy to do it. Then uttering that anyone who accepts CM is somehow morally deficient and wrong as any self respecting person wouldn\'t do that. Thats very inconsistent and passive aggressive. You smile and say you are happy but then comes the veiled insult. If you accept CM you are weak and morally suspect and a bludger on me. How dare you have the audacity to take money from me but hey I really don\'t mind and am happy to support my sons fully. Thats crazymaking abusive nonsense you are indulging in Obi and I can see why your ex has decided to minimise contact with you if thats the way you carry on. I never said it was about being better off. You were the one who raised the fact and expressed the view that your ex was on the pigs back. When people have disagreed with you about that you and suggested that your views are distorted you have disagreed. And Obi how are you going to post a copy of your bank statement on here?

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

you are right-of course kat... i know i go too far some times... i know what it is... i have had so many years of being sat on- i wont take any crap from anyone- esp owl who seems to delight in it.. i try to ignore most of her slightly insane ramblings- but beling called a liar is not something i will take from someone that clearly has her own agenda... as to posting- i have reduced my posts of late because of that very reason... i dont think i does me any good... i post on subjects that in in my field of knowledge... but i dont create threads anymore- it just gives people like owl an opp to have a go... i mean look at the above... i have enough people (offenders) looking for a reason to make my life difficult without coming on here and having the same... my sons are great thanks- i have them this weekend... they are lovely... we always have fun... all the sweeter as i havent seen them for 3-weeks... i was away for 3-weeks re my spine... i have to go for physio on occasion... a bit painful but not as bad as most...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you first posted a very inflammatory post on here asserting that \"ladies\" hang on to there kids to stick the knife into the ex and to keep on the gravy train. When some of us responded very politely saying we didn\'t agree with your viewpoint for xyz objective reasons you fired straight into the insults suggesting we were wrong and mad and that we were\"off our trolley\" You followed that up with a few expletives and further bad language and then turned yourself into the victim by claiming some of us are having a pop at you. You were the one having the pop Obi. And a few of us called you on it. You then turned it around to turn us into the perpetrators. I\'m noticing a pattern of behaviour here. I didn\'t call you a liar Obi I called you a hypocrite. As yet you have been unable to refute that or show the evidence that you are not being hypocritical in your criticisms of your ex wife\'s greediness. I\'m sorry if that offends you but quite frankly I\'m tired of nrp\'s coming on here claiming they are happy to pay CM but then berating their ex\'s for having the audacity to accept and insinuating they are lazy bludgers for doing so. As an nrp I find that very inconsistent and disturbing. JMO

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

cut and paste- owl... cut and paste... Apple invented it years ago... I didnt apply to court for reduction- I called the CSA re a work matter and the CSA man told me that i was paying well over... dont forget i was (am) paying £500 pcm for the legal bill to see my sons... with the £500 (court imposed) CM that was more than half my salary- i was getting into finacial diffs... i took that option- i have addtional resps as well as my sons... i do buy clothes and all the other stuff kids use... i dont see it as a chore... my one son did receive DLA but only for a year- we just didnt know about it... also- there is a time limit... greedy? lol - you sound a bit desperate now owl... how about this settlement? my house, my house in Poland, my pension (lump sum plus monthly) my car ... basically everything... thats what she wanted... i only wanted it to be fair... but war does that to you- it makes you less likely to suffer fools- like you owl... a hippocrite of BIBLICAL proportions... one that in one hand says- \'i dont empathise with your ex\' then very firmly sits on her side attacking me at every opp.. you are nothing more than an abuser- like her... no different except- you cant hit me with kitchen utensils from NZ... oh and whats this MAN thing? is that a sexist gender image too? shame on you... hippocrite...

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

you did call me a liar- its in the posts above... i cant be bothered to point it out toi you- as you clearly cant read- and have decided i am the offender here- but most abusers do that eh? go and bully someone else... i wont lie down and take it anymore... so sod off. anyway... to paraphrase you... i am tired of PWCs coming on here saying they have it bad... try living my life... seeing my kids 4 times less than my ex... i DONT CARE about the money... its not seeing them i hate...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you applied to the CSA to reduce CM. I rest my point , the process by which it occurred is irrelevant to the point I was making. As yet you have not refuted any of the above or said anything that does not show you criticisms of your ex re her greediness to be anything other than hypocritical. you might have some credibility if you hadn\'t applied to the CSA to reduce CM or if you even contributed to at least half your son\'s upkeep like you claim you are willing and able to do. But you actions are inconsistent with that. Your first repsonsibilty is to your sons Obi. That you choose to support another adult and children does not take away from that. Berating your ex for being greedy when you choose to reduce your son\'s CM because you choose to financially support others is comical. Take responsibilty for your own choices. Obi just because people disagree with your viewpoints does not automatically mean we agree with or empathise with your ex. We just disagree with your viewpoints thats all. Its you that is enagaged in a war with your ex and sees the world in terms of you are either for me or for her. Its not like that for those of us who are not participants in that war. Its your battle not ours. The man thing is simply me referring to and reflectingyour denigration of \"lady\" pwcs But I\'ll change that to reflect a category I belong to and say I don\'t think your attempt to reduce CM and then accuse your ex of being bone idle and on the pigs back for among other things claiming CM from you and benefits is something any self respecting and responsible well meaning nrp would do. Certainly not this nrp anyway. I won\'t point out the verbal abuse you have hurled at me on this thread Obi. I don\'t need to its there in black and white as evidence.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

and- PLEASE... dont say you are sorry that you offend... you obviously dont give a flying f... if it offends or not...

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Haven\'t got time to read the thread atm - but something here doesn\'t add up... Obi - Either you earn more than £21K or you\'re not a constable... the minimum pay for someone who has passed probation is £26K, and you claim to have been doing this job for years. http://www.police-information.co.uk/policepay.htm ho hum... someone is telling porkies!

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi as an nrp I know what its like, I don\'t see my son that much and I was denied contact. In the last 3 years I\'ve seen my son for 5 weeks and my ex has seen him for 151. Thats 30 times less than my ex. I have lived what you live. It isn\'t easy. That doesn\'t give me the right to denigrate my ex for the efforts he puts in as pwc. Its not always easy being a single pwc either, I\'ve lived that too, so I know what I\'m talking about. It has its challenges. Just because you feel unhappy about your life and lot as a nrp there is no need to come on here and post inflammatory remarks accusing female pwcs of only keeping their children to dig the knife in at their ex and keep on the gravy train. I know you are angry but targeting and insulting good hardworking pwcs who love their kids and work hard to maintain them and give them a good life in trying circumstances won\'t diffuse that anger. It doesn\'t progress your case. I think you are directing your energies in a negative way and insulting the wrong people. It might be more productive to focus on the postives in your life and access some support to do that.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

joyce- as usual you dont read the post- i said NET you know after tax? my GROSS pay is £32k - for purposes of tax thats my pay.. for CSA purposes they use NET... as to the porkies comment - i believe you can shove it where the sun does not shine... have i ever accused you of lying? dont think so... owl- it gives you EVERY right... i never said it was easy... i said- i would swap in an instant - because no matter how hard it is- FOR ME its harder not being with them... my ex is NOT a GOOD or HARDWORKING PWC... you dont know her, you have no idea what she is like... I do... yes she looks after our sons... but the amount of work she has is down to her- she can make it easier anytime she wants- she would rather give them to strangers (true- people the boys dont even know...) than me- thier own dad... i bet there are PWCS that would love to have me as an NRP... ER? KAT?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you didn\'t refer to your ex in your first post on this thread, you referred to \"lady\" pwc\'s and insulted and denigrated all lady pwcs in the process. I know you find it hard not being with your boys, thats something you are going to have always cope with as a divorced parent, pwc or nrp. Obi you may find that you taking the boys for the time you do gives your ex just the right balance and time out that suits her. She seems happy to keep it that way in any case so one can only assume shes content with the status quo. 20% of 21,000 divided by 12 comes out at 350 quid a month by my reckoning but you only pay 300quid. As Joyce says its not too material but it does rather cast doubt on your claim to be paying over and above whats required by the CSA. No Obi, the fact that I see my son less than my ex does not give me every right to denigrate his efforts as pwc and totally disregard the fact that he works to support our son and looks after his physical needs. That you think you have the right to do that to your ex is a sad reflection on you and sad for your sons. Its downright demeaning of you.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you didn\'t refer to your ex in your first post on this thread, you referred to \"lady\" pwc\'s and insulted and denigrated all lady pwcs in the process. \"i bet there are PWCS that would love to have me as an NRP... ER? KAT?\" Actually in light of the above Obi I think you owe ER and Kat an apology for your outburst Obi. Not to mention TD, evr, STIDW, Lazt Lizzie, why, et al

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

Obi you may find that you taking the boys for the time you do gives your ex just the right balance and time out that suits her. She seems happy to keep it that way in any case so one can only assume shes content with the status quo. yeah but the boys and me arnt... oh go on the csa site and taking into account my contact ... which is 140 days per year... as to the rest up yuors..

skovby1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:32

Obi - I am not offended .... ain\'t no gravy on any train coming past this house. The reason son is with me the majority of time is down to where and when my ex and I work (in our diary it is impossible to get a total of 168 hours contact time a week - deduct schools hours, time playing with school friends, time for sleep and you are probably left with a total of 60-70 hours a week). I am able to get to your CSA figure of £300 (assume 1/7 off ?) - and if you contribute to shoes and clothes on top of that then I\'d say you are above \"guidelines\". In my opinon (and in my case) the \"who got what\" argument become a little irrelevant 5+ years down the line. .... Would I want you as a NRP (know I wasn\'t mentioned) - don\'t see any problem with that. Would I want you as a partner sitting at the PC moaning about your ex whilst your lovely boys are around ..... probably not LOL Have a lovely day y\'all xxx

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Skovby I stand corrected about the CSA figure, thanks for clarifying that, I\'d forgotten the 1/7 thing. If the boys and you are not happy with the current level of contact Obi the court process will address and resolve that surely? Obi do you really have your boys there with you this weekend? Perhaps Skovby has a point. It might be better to focus on that positive and move away from the PC and posting angrily on this thread to attend to the boys and spend the time you crave with them.

evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

I don\'t see that many pwcs coming on here and saying how tough life is, unless someone like obi comes on and says how well off they are! From my own point of view, I\'m worse off than a lot of people, and also better off than a lot of people. Thats my lot in life and I accept it. But I certainly did not fleece my ex for all I could get and then live a life of luxury, and I get fed up with that assumption. What I will have eventually is the knowledge that I supported my children as best I could, and my ex won\'t have that because he hasn\'t. Stuart, I really can\'t be bothered to check on the stirring, so I will accept that your remarks were just aimed at joyce. The problem is that this is an open board and things you say to one person will also resonate with other people. What I resent is women who post on the board being referred to as witches simply for expressing an opinion. With reference to the original comment, I always thought the triggers for stopping SM were fair, but as the post as progressed I can see that things are not always that cut and dried. And actually what joyce said is correct. My girls are just about grown and in the future they and their dad can spend as much time together as they like (as they have always been able to do). He won\'t have to pay anything towards their needs, can make his own choices about what he does etc. I, however, will lose his support (such as it is), tax credits, child benefit, as well as not being able to increase my earnings or my pension. Children are only dependents for a relatively short time. The big picture is that most pwcs end up the poorer after divorce, and the myth that pwcs benefit more from divorce is just that, a myth.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

As far as Im concerned whatever Joyce says is total crap. I wouldnt believe one cancerous word out of her stupid mouth. A thoroughly nasty bit of shit....JMO.....

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Sorry - these figures don\'t add up to me... You said that you were required to pay £200, and that your ex saw the kids 4 times as much as you... if that\'s the case, then you could only earn £21K gross... If you earn £32K before tax - a more plausible PC salary - that would be £460 per week after tax. That\'s more like £23K p.a. after tax - not £21K by the way... Anyway, on £460 p.w take home , with 2 children and your 140 days contact, the CSA rate would be £66 p.w. - which is £286 pcm.. So, the £300 is about right - not that much over anyway... But I\'m perplexed - now you say, you have 140 days over nights - if that is what you mean by \"contact days\"? But didn\'t you say your ex saw the children 4 times as much as you - so does that mean your wife gets them for the other 560 nights in the year.... Or if you really mean that you have them 140 nights, doesn\'t that mean you have them 39% of the time and your ex has them 61% of the time? Which given she was a fulltime mum before the split, sounds pretty good to me....

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

yeah joyce- i just made it up.. anyone else fancy calling me a liar? knob...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

OK - fair enough - at least you had the decency to own up to it in the end. Though I have to say I am perplexed as to which elements of the story are fabrication and which (if any) are real.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

its all lies - I am very happy - the lady 4 years were a dream... Err... Can you really be that thick?

why?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:22:57

goodness, you lot, slow down! what i really struggle to understand from some posts is this. there are people, who from what their posts say, suggest they are now divorced or living with new partners and even got new babies with new partners! what on earth are you lot doing spending time on a divorce chat site? surely, being with new partners means you have or should have moved on. do your new partners know that you spend so much time on here talking about your ex\'s and would they feel happy or secure in that knowledge. if i was the new partner id be a bit concerned to say the least.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

why?... you have a point... i think some of us- still have issues to be sorted... i guess i am one of them... i originally came her to support... but i think i only do that 10% of the time... now i spend most of it calling owl a knob... and now joyce too... although its much more likely she IS a knobber... anyway... ttfn

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

Obi - you appear to have said a number of contradictory things on this thread - unless the CSA calculator is wrong (possible I suppose), or you live somewhere where there is 560 days in a year (unlikely) etc. etc. What is clear - is that if some of what you claim is accurate, it certainly can\'t all be. It\'s an internet discussion board, so I have no way of verifying what you say. What does come across, if there is any truth in it all, is your deep bitterness towards your ex, which seems to colour all your thoughts.. As you say, it\'s been 4 years - if she was that bad a mother, well, your boys wouldn\'t be growing up so well. For your own sake, probably time to leave the bitterenss behind. I appreciate you feel hard done by, and it must be hard to be separated from your children - but that separation is an inevitable consequence of the route you chose, even if you felt your options were constrained. lately a few regulars have tried to point out that your life is not the doom and gloom you insist it is. By your own account, you seem to have a lot going for you, and seeing your glass always half empty does you no favours. You take care - and stop growling at me too - I mean you no harm, and I\'m only trying to point out at an alternative viewpoint - though I recognise you don\'t like me doing that too much. J. x

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

nahh...

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Got to understand Obi that Joyce is a friggin know all on the subject of parenting...remember SHE is the only woman to give birth...lol.... I \"like\" her bit in the post above about \"only trying to offer an alternative viewpoint\"...yeah, my arse! Its just like when she goes into one and gives us the benefit of her alleged PhD, usually accusing some bloe or another of being \"bitter\" etc...you know the sort of crap she spouts, only to end the post with JMO.... The way she dares to breakdown the figures and facts you have given and give her opinion are unbelievable. Perhaps we should do the same with her posts? Hmmm.....wonder what that would throw up about her character eh? For what its worth I believe you when you talk about your ex. But sadly my opinion wont count for anything as Im just a bloke. You were a victim of DV and have continually been ignored or the subject played down over the time you have been on this site. Your ex sounds truely ghastly and a pretty poor parent. Yet if you were female the advice and support would be outstanding. Strange eh? Thought this was an equal society? Anyway, I dont need to tell you this but just ignore the patronising bollox written by Joyceee.....she has her head so far up her own arse she can see her breakfast. \"what on earth are you lot doing spending time on a divorce chat site? surely, being with new partners means you have or should have moved on. do your new partners know that you spend so much time on here talking about your ex\'s and would they feel happy or secure in that knowledge. if i was the new partner id be a bit concerned to say the least.\" Well why.....I do it as a bit of a hobby.....lol..... Seriously, I use this site to try and offer advice from my experience of divorce. If people didnt do that then Im afraid you wouldnt have had any advice from anyone because there would be no-one here to offer it! Think about it....

why?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:22:57

yes, stuart, you are correct. thats absolutely true. just find it difficult to believe that people who have moved on, im referring mainly to those in new relationships, have the time or interest thats all. but that said, i do see the \'addiction\' because you do get to know people in a virtual way and it is good to hear how people get on. im not at all criticising, just was an immediate thought that entered my head, especially if i was the new partner, thats all.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

well... the CSA are happy with what i pay.. owl- i dont have 1850 to spend... i have to live somewhere... eat....

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

joyce- are they growing up ok? they have been in 3-schools in 12 months... because the teachers were not telling her i was a bast@rd... one son has punched her in the face - bad enough to warrant a trip to casualty and a bit of nurse action- monkey see/monkey do? i suppose its all very difficult to believe- i dont believe some of it myself... but you know something joyce? when you have had to hold on to the taps in the sink to steady yourself following being hit over the head with a saucepan- or standing in your bedroom dripping wet because your ex has trown a bucket of water over you at 3am... not much can really phase you... certainly not people on this board... sure i get angry- but not for long... i am in clover now... i have noone shouting at me, noone puching/kicking/biting me... noone telling me i am a useless, lying nothing of a dad (except owl of course-lol) - i see my sons more than most men in my sit... so i should be very happy eh? however, thats like telling a slave in new orleans that he should be happy because he has a full belly and a job... no matter how much i am told i am well off- it dont feel that way because - i am not free. i will never be truely happy - not without my boys. Not living with my sons feels like a part of me is missing... i feel dead inside... just existing... So, i will continue to fight an unequal system - for my sons... they are worth it... no matter how much owl or yourself talk up my ex to be this paragon of motherhood- i know the truth- she could allow the extra contact ANY TIME SHE WANTS- but CHOOSES not to... that is the real and plain fact that none of the doubters can answer...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

its all lies - I am very happy - the lady 4 years were a dream... Err... Can you really be that thick?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Yes Obi you like everone else on the planet has to eat and sleep and fund it out of their income, be that form salary or wages, business earnings, benefits, CM or SM. The point is your ex has approximately 1720 quid to pay for 3 peoples place to live and eat. You have 1850 to pay for one persons place to live and eat. Now I know you will pay for the boys place to live and eat when they are with you, but even then its not hard to see that she has less income and more expenses than you vis a vis the family that the two of you have. And I know you now have taken on other family responsibilities outside of yours and your ex-wifes family but thats your choice and nothing to do with her.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Its sad you feel dead inside when you are apart from your sons Obi. Thats actually not a normal reaction to have over a continuing period when you see them at least once a week and for a 3 day stretch every second week and maybe you need to seek some psychological help for that. I hope your son is getting some psychological help to deal with his aggression and anger management issues. That he can overpower an adult in such a way that the adult requires medical attention indicates a considerable amount of force being used. I hope you to support him to take responsibility for his actions and don\'t excuse him as you judge it to be all his mothers fault. Your ex can choose not to allow you extra contact Obi. It doesn\'t make her a bad mother although I can see in your eyes it makes her the devil incarnate because she won\'t give you what you want. Given your son\'s aggression more frequent transitions may be counter-indicated as it can result in an escalation in disruptive behaviour. And because she won\'t give you what you want you don\'t feel free. Freedom is not being able to demand what you want when. Freedom is being able to manage and control your emotions and reactions to others so those emotions and reactions don\'t destroy you. Judging by your posts you have a long way to go until you can ever master freedom for yourself.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

and it was her choice to subject me to years of dv - so you could argue its her fault. I don\'t believe that my feelings are abnormal - its your feelings for NOT feeling down without your kids that are abnormal. As I say I looked after 4 people on less money ... I don\'t care about the money. Its not seeing by sons that bothers me. So owl - come on then- put that brain to work - why not allow (like they are her property) me to see the kids more often - say 50 pet cent? Why do you think she does it?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

it doesn\'t make her a bad mother to not allow her sons to see me- their own dad- more than the pittence iget now? LOL you really are pushing it! Even for you that\'s low... It just shows though- how pwcs like you owl think they have the right to withheld contact when they feel like it. You are no different from her.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you need to get over who was at fault for the marriage break up. It does nothing to move you forward and does not help you cope with how you feel and respond now. You like most of us are a divorced parent. Most of us divorced parents do not see our kids as much as when we were married. Sorry Obi but I don\'t believe the vast majority of parents feel down when they are not with their kids particularly if they know they are going to see them again soon. They may miss them momentarily form time to time but it does not cause them to go into a debilitating depression where they claim they feel dead inside when they are apart from their children. That is not a normal reaction and you may need to talk to someone about your depressive feelings that arise from that to find a way of overcoming them. You should do that for both your own AND your sons sake. It can\'t be easy for any child knowing that if they are not with a parent that parent suffers from debilitating depression. Thats far too much pressure to put on a child. You talk about your being free, how about focussing on your sons and considering how they are going to achieve freedom and independance into adulthood when they have such an emotionally dependant parent who makes them feel responsible for his own happiness. Obi, I have never withheld contact in my life as a pwc. I have had contact withheld from me as an nrp. It doesn\'t feel nice but that said I never expected that I could just demand contact either and it would be agreed with. Contact regimes need to be in the interest of the child as a whole and I see little merit in demanding 50 % just because it gives the parent a sense of fairness. If you ever have residency though Obi you are still going to have to cope with your depressive feelings when you are apart from your children. If your ex-wife asks to see the boys 50% of the time or more by your rckoning you would be a bad Dad if you didn\'t automatically agree. I am assuming you would apply the same standards to yourself as you expect from her Obi. So all of that said I think like many of us on this board you are going to have to come terms with the consequences of your divorce. Many of us didn\'t choose to end our marriages. We faced huge emotional hurdles and we don\'t always like the consequences. However we have had to find a way to cope and when thats been hard we have accessed help to overcome the place of deep despair that our emotions lead us to. Its not easy but maybe you need to consider that you have become deeply embittered and angry and seem to be getting worse. You don\'t seem to have moved on from that. You don\'t have to choose to stay in that place. Life doesn\'t always pan out how we want Obi and we don\'t always get what we want. When that happens we have to deal with it in a way that doesn\'t destroy us. If you feel dead inside its getting to you. I hope you have the courage to seek help. You will continue hurt yourself if you don\'t and that impacts on your family. You boys spent the weekend with a father who was absorbed in posting angry outbursts on the PC berating their mother. I hate to think of the vibes they get from that. We come across how we feel. I hope you think about that.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

well i had a letter today saying i havent paid CM for the last year from the Court- she has informed them I havent paid a penny!!! You see owl- what makes me different from most NRPs is that most people move on... i CANT because I am not allowed to by her...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, if you have paid all the CM due in the last year and you have had a letter from the Court saying you haven\'t just respond verifying the payments you have made and ask them to alter their records accordingly. I\'m not sure of the process in the UK but to hear from a Court here that you owe a debt you either have to have had proceedings issued against you supported by an affidavit by the creditor or the Court is seeking to pursue a judgment debt already decided against you. In the first case you have to attend Court to defend the petition, in the second you just have to pay your judgement debt. If you have paid what you owe and can verify it you have nothing to worry about. Don\'t let it get to you. Its you that gets wound up by it all. Your the one who is not moving on.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

well- the LAST time she did this, she had an embarrassing climb down in court about how much i owed... the court DONT check what you say- you just sign the statement and send it off!!! i am half minded to say \'bite my shiny metal ass\' see you in court... my partner was upset last night... \'it will never end\' she said... this is the problem- darth wont stop... until i am in the gutter or destroyed... you know why she has done this? because i have issued notice the court papers re the new contact shedule were sent... thats the way her sick mind works...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, you need to start a \"whatever\" file. One where you place everything that comes in that upsets you and close the lid for a few days. No of course the Court don\'t check what you say. Its the party issuing proceedings evidence not the Courts. The Court is just the mechanism by which that evidence is heard. If you have made all the payments due for CM then you have nothing to worry about. Once you have calmed down and taken that letter out of the whatever file, I\'d be inclined if I were you to take all your supporting documentation proving payment in full to a solicitor and ask them to file a notice of defence. If you are right you will win and be able to claim costs. The reason I\'d advise taking it to a sol is that it will emotionally remove you from the process a little as you get wound up by these things. If you haven\'t made full payment of all the amount due I\'d consider just paying the outstanding amount and moving on. It won\'t destroy you and it gets a monkey off your back. If there are still amounts owing your issuing Court proceedings seeking a variation to Contact has probably triggered these Court proceedings against you. You may have got away with the deficit in any payment due if you hadn\'t done that. If you want to up the ante, go ahead and say \"bite my shiny ass\", see you in Court. It will only leave you and your partner more upset. This will only destroy you if you choose to let it. You will not end up in the gutter unless you choose either.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sol... with what ? buttons?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i have spoken to both CSA and Court... they are a bit confused too... csa are looking into it... its just ANOTHER example of her in action... \'You may have got away with the deficit in any payment due if you hadn\'t done that\'. yeah... poss... but my sons want to see me more- they want to stay with me - so i must continue... i wont be a \'good little boy\' or keep quiet or she will use money to control me... its just her way... to be controlling... now its with the boys... when we lived together it was with her fists...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I find it quite scary that you hold a public post with authority Obi. You\'re barking. No, not about being apart from your boys. I\'m a parent and I can quite emphasise with that side of the scenario. It\'s the way that you deal with matters that are of a lot less consequence. Almost like you would head butt a double decker bus if it was 5 minutes late.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi she can only use money to \"control\" you if you owe her something that you are liable to pay. Have you paid over the Court ordered debt you owe from the last time she took you to Court for the deficit you owed from when you were paying CM under the Consent order prior to you switching to CSA. (and I know it was less than she claimed but my understanding was the Court still ruled you owed her money you had not paid over) CSA will be confused if they have made all payments due but they will not know about any Court ordered debt as that will be over and above anything they have paid. Best rule pay your debts when they fall due. Otherwise they remain a monkey on your back. If you don\'t owe anything then you don\'t have anything to worry about, stop worrying and catastrophising.

Martin

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

\"catastrophising\" Wow... what a great word! I never knew that one before lol... sums it up very well tho\' lol

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl - I just set the CSA and the court to work to solve the issue... Debts - yes pay them .. This is not a one off its just the latest in a long line of Martin- I am barking? And you are a picture of sanity? If so I think I may just throw myself under that bus now eh?

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you either owe her money or you don\'t. Whether its a one off or not is immaterial. If you keep not paying what you owe then it will be one in a long line. Its her right to pursue you for what you owe her and so she should if you neglect to pay the full amount owing. You can\'t just let bad debtors walk all over you. A court won\'t just go and pursue money for anyone on their hearsay or send a letter on behalf of anyone pursuing money unless the debt is the subject of a Court judgment. They will forward Court documents that have been filed petitioning to prove a debt asking you to attend to put your case. They won\'t investigate on your behalf whether you owe her anything if its just her hearsay. They have better things to do with their time. They will tell her to talk to you about it or file proceedings. Lol I always thought Martin one of the sanest people on this board. He talks a remarkable lot of sense. There no hope for the rest of us then!

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i dont owe her anything... CSA say i dont .. \'A court won\'t just go and pursue money for anyone on their hearsay or send a letter on behalf of anyone pursuing money unless the debt is the subject of a Court judgment. They will forward Court documents that have been filed petitioning to prove a debt asking you to attend to put your case\' err... yes they do... you just swear an statement and they issue a \'pay up or else\' document... look- just stick to what you know about eh? also- I AM NOT MAKING IT UP... unless you are calling me a liar again... as to Martin... i repeat- if Martin\'s state of mind is the critera to which we are judged- we are all in trouble.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi a court do not issue a \"pay up or else\" document based on someone elses sworn evidence. They serve you with proceedings and set the matter down for a hearing so you can put your case and refute the evidence submitted by the other party. Its called natural justice and your right to be heard. All citizens have a right to that just as they have a right to bring proceedings against someone if they have a dispute with them. Thats what our legal system gives us. It distinguishes us from despot regimes where the rule of law does not apply. I know quite a bit about legal proceedings Obi, the common law system and the principles that apply. When you are an officer of the court you tend to know these things. Maybe you need to stick to what you know about as you clearly don\'t get the point here or understand the principles involved. If the Court has served you with a document that says \"pay up or else\" without giving you a right to be heard then that Court has contravened the law it has been set up to administer. You should complain to the relevant person. The Court do issue \"pay up or else documents\" for judgment debts that have already been determined at a previous hearing but you still have a right to be heard not on whether you owe the debt as the Court has already determined you do but how you are going to pay it. If you have a previous judgment against you for a debt CSA saying you don\'t owe anything will not be relevant. All they are saying is that under their regime you have made all payments due. Any judgment debt sits outside that. Of course if you do owe her nothing you have nothing to worry about, so STOP WORRYING. Just show evidence that you have made all payments due including your payment of the amount the Court determined you owed her at the previous Court hearing.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

so the letter I have saying \'pay the amount immediately\' is a figment of my imagination? I am getting pretty tired of you telling me what things say or how things work when I am LOOKING at the letter!!!!!!!

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I believe you when you say you have had that letter Obi and it says in a sentence \"pay the amount immediately\". I\'m not disputing that. However that phrase has to read in the context of the sentence and the letter it appears as a whole. Obi if you have a letter from the Court saying \"pay the amount immediately\" and it says that definitively then you have either had a judgment debt entered against you or the Court has made a serious mistake. If they have made a serious mistake you go back to them and say the debt has not been proved against me, show me the basis on which you seek payment. They will need to point to a judgment against you showing the debt. If there is a judgment against you showing you owe the debt and you have paid it then all you need to do is provide proof of payment. If the letter you have does not say definitively \"pay the amount immediately\" but is in the context of setting out your options (I note you only quote part of sentence so the phrase has no meaning except by its context) then you need to consider your options. That is if it is said you can either \"pay the amount immiediately\" or etc. If paying the debt immediately is your only option and you are not offered a hearing to dispute the debt then its likely a judgment debt. First step is to go to the Court and ask on what basis they have sent the letter. You will know whether you have paid the previous judgment debt entered against you from the previous Court hearing. Provide proof of payment and you are fine. If you haven\'t paid it then its hardly surprising you find yourself in this position. I\'d suggest you post the whole sentence in which \"pay the amount immediately\" is written to show its context.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i think i will just deal myself thanks... its my own fault... i shouldnt post on here... easy fix that...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Lol Obi, you are playing the poor me game again. You are so predicatable. I hope you get it sorted.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

No-its the \'people don\'t believe me\' abd its not a game - its annoying.

evr

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:03

Wow, this thread has drifted a bit! Obi, I have just finished writing a letter to the Council of the borough where my mum lives in a care home, saying they are wrong, my mother has paid them what they think she owes, and enclosing the bank statements proving it. Not the first time I\'ve had to write such a letter to avoid them taking her or me to court. Its annoying, sure, but thats burearcracy for you. People aren\'t saying you\'re lying, they\'re saying that if you don\'t owe the money then YOU DON\'T HAVE A PROBLEM! And that you\'re completely overreacting

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i am not over reacting- its you lot that are!!! i did say earlier- that i have told the app people... i am just a bit sick of: 1. people not believing me- owl esp 2. her using every opp some 4-years after the divorce to stick in the knife.. nothing else... look - if i can deal with child sex abuse - i can deal with this...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, Evr has it right. No one is saying your lying or questioning that you have the letter asking you to pay immediately. I raised the context those words arose in to establish how the debt you allegedly owe arose and to give you advise on how to deal with it. Its you who interprets everyone that does not respond immediately to you \"oh how awful\" and proffers sympathy as not believing you. Obi none of us are over-reacting. We are simply posting on an internet message board. But I think it is an over-reaction to start stating you will be destroyed and in the gutter simply on receipt of a letter from the Court asking that you pay money you allegedly don\'t owe. Most people just provide proof of payment and the matter ends. I presume you have now done that and it won\'t go any further.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I grow tired of pointing your posts out to u since you do nothing about your behaviour.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, I haven\'t asked you to point out my posts to me nor have I accused you of lying. Its you that is having that argument and you are having it with yourself. You may interpret what I say as an accusation that you are telling lies but thats only your interpretation from you viewpoint. You may not like my posts or that I offer an alternative viewpoint to the one that you hold strongly to but its only your perspective of what you believe your ex is doing to you and open to challenge. \"her using every opp some 4-years after the divorce to stick in the knife..\" Your ex could equally be sitting at home fuming that despite the divorce being 4 years ago and contact and CM being sorted out at the time you still take every opportunity to challenge those arrangements and stick the knife in. She probably sees that you sought to stick the knife in when you sought to get CM reduced by referring it to the CSA. You sought to stick the knife in when you didn\'t follow the contact order to the letter of the law. And you are sticking the knife in now by seeking to vary the Contact arrangements in place. She probably laments the fact that after 4 years you have not moved on and take every opportunity to take a pop. The reality of course is that in all post parenting divorce relationships life circumstances change as is the way of life. Each others actions should more correctly be interpreted as each adapting to the changes that occur in their life post divorce. Some of those changes will offer fresh challenges that will impact on the children and the other parent, be they new relationships, changing employment circumstances, reduced income etc. Just because changes need to happen or the other parent asks that the children\'s best interests be reconsidered or makes changes in the child\'s life they consider best meets their needs or seeks to have the status quo maintained as they think that best does not mean one parent is having a pop at the other. But when you haven\'t moved on to a place where you can view things more objectively you will continue to think and feel like that.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

ha now I know you can\'t read.. And are TOTALLY on her side. Alt view? How about \'those nasty Jews deserved killing in ww2\' No? I don\'t provoke anyone. My sons want more contact. You think I like this ? She started this by denying contact? Are you going to rationalise that now please? She is the villan here owl - not me. Why do u insist on saying otherwise?

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Lol Obi. Maybe you need to understand the difference between the expression of fact and an expression of opinion. When you say \"my ex is a trained teacher\" , you express a fact. If someone disagrees with you then they are calling you a liar. When you say \"my ex is the most vile person in the known universe\", that is an expression of opinion. You may believe it to be fact but its only your opinion and you have come to that no doubt based on your interpretation of her behaviour. If someone gives an alternative view for that behaviour they are NOT calling you a liar but CHALLENGING YOU TO CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT for her behaviour. Noone challenged the Nazi\'s to consider an alternative viewpoint about the Jews. They were just considered the most vile people in the known universe. Hence the most massive victimisation in history took place. That you compare your situation with such an atrocity shows your complete lack of proportionality when it comes to your circumstances. This is a woman that is disputing your payment of a debt you owed to her and disputing the need to change the existing contact arrangements you each initially agreed for your two sons. If you can\'t accept that she has just as much right to have a view on those things as you and to be heard then I suggest your thinking leads to the same thinking that lead to the extermination of the Jews on World War 2. Its not about who started this Obi and its not about who is the villain. Keep that for your policing, you confuse the criminal and civil law. If you take Court action against someone then they will feel provoked. You have felt provoked when she has taken Court action against you. But she had a right to just like you have a right to. Its what people do when they have a dispute they can\'t resolve. You can be annoyed about the fact that she is challenging you over a debt, but it doesn\'t make her the vilest person in the known universe although you may THINK it does. No I don\'t think you like any of this Obi. I suspect she doesn\'t either. I suspect she wishes you would have stuck to the agreed CM and that she didn\'t have to take you to Court to get you to pay the balance you hadn\'t paid. I suspect she wishes she didn\'t have to take you to Court over breach of the Contact regime. The fact you disagree with each other over postdivorce arrangements for your sons does not make either of you bad people.

Martin

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Obi, you are just so absolutely fecking hilarious at times in a totally predictable way. Thanks for giving me a laugh. Nice one. Quote: *no one can be that thick* lol

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl- you have a point about the perspective thing... everything is a perspective view. i suppose she felt justified in stopping me seeing the children- from my point of view/the kids and court - she wasnt... i suppose she feels justified in continuing telling them what a bastard i am... from my point of view a person that continues to abuse is vile... i suppose she feels justified in not telling me when the children\'s important events are- like today- it was my son\'s confirmation- she told them not to tell me... and now ive missed it- from my point of view it was a typical deliberate nasty action of a woman that has a very casual hatred and contempt for me... justify that. i cant help but think about another poster\'s comment about you owl- \'if your ex had given away one of your son\'s kidneys- owl would not see any wrong in it\'. your brand of liberal crap makes me sick- some things are just WRONG plain and simple... stopping the children from seeing me was wrong. you have NEVER agreed with that. ergo- you are very much in her camp... so how can anything you say be treated with anything other than contempt? oh and martin- go fuck yourself.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owls best line was \'the fact you disagree with post divorce contact arrangements doesn\'t make either of you bad people.\' LOL Yeah I disagreed alright - if it was up to her I woulnt be seeing them at all... If that doesn\'t show you whose side owl is on martin then nothing I can say could...

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owls best line was \'the fact you disagree with post divorce contact arrangements doesn\'t make either of you bad people.\' LOL Yeah I disagreed alright - if it was up to her I woulnt be seeing them at all... If that doesn\'t show you whose side owl is on martin then nothing I can say could...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"i suppose she felt justified in stopping me seeing the children- from my point of view/the kids and court - she wasnt...\" Exactly Obi so you went to Court and got contact sorted out by consent after both of you had had the opportunity to have your concerns heard and cafcass had ascertained the children\'s views. The contact regime reflected both your views. That of course was what , 3 years ago. Since then you have seen your sons regularly, they ring you every day. \"i suppose she feels justified in continuing telling them what a bastard i am... from my point of view a person that continues to abuse is vile...\" I agree continued abuse of a person is vile Obi which is why I find your continued abuse of her vile. I find your behaviour in doing that vile. Does that make you a vile person? Well by your standards it does. Reflect on your own behaviour. \"i suppose she feels justified in not telling me when the children\'s important events are- like today- it was my son\'s confirmation- she told them not to tell me... and now ive missed it- from my point of view it was a typical deliberate nasty action of a woman that has a very casual hatred and contempt for me...\" You have missed your children receiving a sacrament of a church you have claimed on here to despise and who\'s doctrine you don\'t believe in. Why are you upset that you were not there, it would have been hypocritical of you to attend surely. However if you were interested or the least bit suppportive of the practice of their faith you would not be relying on her or the boys telling you when their confirmation was. You would have found out through parish sources (or their school) as these things are well advertised. Obi, I like you have been denied contact, I went two and half years without seeing my son, his sisters did not see their brother in that time. My ex wouldn\'t tell me of any significant event in my son\'s life, I\'m told he berates me often. I don\'t actually care about any of that. I don\'t have your anger. I\'ve let it go and forgiven. It doesn\'t matter about who is right and who is wrong and who is good and who is bad. What matters is that I have the love of my three children and I love them dearly. Nothing changes that or spoils that. And they have a Mum who isn\'t consumed by anger and hate and bitterness at their other parent. They have a Mum who does not allow her future happiness to be clouded by that anger and hate and bitterness. You boys don\'t have that Obi as you are still stuck back in the past screaming you were wrong so you are bad! Because I feel wronged everything you do now must be bad. And you want appeasement for the wrong you feel she has done you. I don\'t think you will be at peace until you get it. Obi, that appeasement may not come. She feels totally justified in her actions. No one is going to punish her for calling you bastard, or not inviting you to your kids confirmation, or not responding to your requests. And while you are still stuck back in the past you can\'t see the good in your life right now to enjoy and cherish it. Thats your appeasement, a better life. I\'ll get back to enjoying my children and the relationship I have with them. I hope you can move from this space you are in so that you are less angry and bitter.

Martin

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I\'d love to try and figure things out with you Obi, to try and help you see sense in her (darth, not owl) daft reasoning, but I really don\'t believe that you fully read and comprehend replies on this forum, or even *anything* that\'s written to you from an official source. You seem to respond in a \"they\'ve replied, it must be to disagree with me\" way without actually reading what\'s been said. The court sending a \'pay up or else\' letter based on a single statement of he owes me is a classic... lol.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

martin- to enforce a court imposed cm order- you go to a sol and swear out a section- 9 statement- it really is as simple as \'my ex should pay me money he hasnt and he owes me X\' fact... the last time she did this she stated some figure noone in the court could work out either... this one is the same... except i have paid- but for some reason the csa have not sent her the diff- or they have and she is lying... oh i forget... you dont believe me... oh well... i guess i could do one of two things here- i could scan in her last attempt at a statment and post it to a thread... or just smile to myself knowing that you have no idea what you are talking about and leave it at that. owl- yes- i am an athiest so chuch dogma means little to me... my sons are catholic- and to them- it was important... it is not hypocritical (ffs... is there anything else you want to accuse me of???? liar, hippocrite, aggressive, etc...) to want to see and be a part of my sons lives... even if they want to worship a sky fairy... its up to them... i actually bet my partner 10-quid you would say some bullshit like that... easiest 10-quid i ever made... and you say i am predictable...

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl- i dont abuse my ex wife- abuse has to be directed to a person and they have to know!!! lol... someone may be abusing me now... but since i dont know... she ABUSED and IS now ABUSING me - she is just using a different weapon. classic- that last post- you DO NOT ONCE SAY ANYTHING NEG ABOUT HER... only me... fuck you owl

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you do abuse your ex wife. Your abuse is directed at her and she will know you are doing it! Don\'t tell me she doesn\'t know that you think she is vilest person in the known universe. Abuse can be passive and covert as well as overt. You are abusive. You just verbally abused me in the last sentence of your above post. As someone raised a catholic I can tell you confirmation is not that big a deal for an 8 -11 year old. Most have no understanding of the signifigance of it. However if you wanted to attend you would have. You would have found out when the Confirmation day was and turned up. If I was a practising Catholic and had brought my children up in the faith I would not invite their atheist father to attend particularly if he had strong views on the merits of catholicism as I would not have thought it appropriate for him to be there and I wouldn\'t ask him to compromise his values. That would go whether we were married or divorced. However you can go and introduce yourself to the parish priest and ask to keep updated on church events if you want to be involved. They turn noone away and will be pleased to talk to you. But I suspect this is one of many events in the children\'s lives she doesn\'t invite you to. How many of the children\'s events do you invite her to? Have you ever issued her an invitation to come and share some special occasion with them. And don\'t tell me you don\'t have them, we all do. \" martin- to enforce a court imposed cm order- you go to a sol and swear out a section- 9 statement- it really is as simple as \'my ex should pay me money he hasnt and he owes me X\' fact... the last time she did this she stated some figure noone in the court could work out either... this one is the same... except i have paid- but for some reason the csa have not sent her the diff- or they have and she is lying...\" So that statement confirms it. You got a \"either\" \"pay the amount immediately\" followed by \" or if you wish to dispute the debt please attend a Court hearing to put your case\" Thats not a pay up or else letter, its a letter asking you to either pay the debt if you owe it or attend Court and put your case. Attending Court is just a process, its not a punishment Obi. Obi the CSA will not send her the difference to make up the Court Orderd CM that you haven\'t paid. Thats because they don\'t have authority to collect previously unpaid Court Ordered CM from you to pay out to her. If they did her sol and the Court would have referred her to the CSA. Have you paid the outstanding CM the Court ordered you must pay at the last Court hearing? Because you posted on here an amount was ordered against you. CSA don\'t collect that on behalf of the Court. You pay it as its your judgement debt. What the CSA are saying is that you don\'t owe her anything since they took over administering your CM payments. But you had an outstanding debt to her before they took over and she won that substantive point (and the case) at the last Court hearing, even if the quantum awarded was not what she claimed. So have you paid that judgement debt yet? It won\'t go away.

Martin

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Obi, I don\'t understand. 2 things. 1) \"pay up or else\" If you\'ve already \'paid up\', then what can the \'or else\' possibly consist of? 2) \"oh i forget... you dont believe me... oh well...\" I haven\'t said I don\'t believe you. What I\'ve said is that your (over) reaction to things that aren\'t so catastrophic as you think is scary. I\'m beginning to see why cops think that fining drivers for sipping water whilst they are stopped at traffic lights is par for the course. Perhaps the over reaction is a training thing, and you think it\'s \'normal\' to go off on, what seems to others, to be a childish tantrum.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

ok- you two... i am getting aggrivated now... passive abuse... lol WTF is that>???? abuse that you dont know about? lol... i can take as much of that as ANYONE could not actually give me... lol... passive abuse- i have heard it all now... i think i did say that i have spoken to the csa- and they are preparing a report to counter her allegations... i have not mentioned the end of the world - its just f***ing irritating to be accused of stuff like this... martin - in the 20-years i have been in the \'cops\' i have given exactly 2 fixed pens... both for idiots that wouldnt move off zigs outside a school- i think they were in 1996... i think... its not about going off on one... its about a consistant behaviour from owl- she still has NEVER, not once... ever - no matter how bad she has been - said anything against her- i think its because she sees her as a \'poor woman\' that has been left by that nasty copper... if true- how can anyone trust what she says re my ex? i have a VERY stressfull job - that appears to be getting stressful- problems managing money- (dont we all) lots of issues with my health and my sons upset every week.. i dont need some fucking amateur psychologist telling me i am a hippocrite when i complain my ex is behaving like the raving nutter she is... i just dont need it...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi if you have not heard of passive abuse then you don\'t know much about abuse. The most damaging abuse is not the abuse that is seen and heard, that is physical and verbal but abuse that is not seen and heard by anyone else but is directed at the victim none the less and victims knows they are being emotionally abused. When the abuser is called on it, usually when the victim reacts often verbally but sometimes physically the perpetrator then turns on their victim and blames the victim often accusing them of being mad. Its crazy making stuff and very destabilising to the victim. If you have heard of or seen or experienced that dynamic Obi I\'m surprised. I would have thought in you line of work you would see it quite often. Obi I haven\'t said anything about your ex. I\'ve offered alternative viewpoints for her behaviour and actions. As in it may just be that she is pursuing a debt because she believes she is owed a debt. Last time she believed you owed her a debt she went to Court and won a judgment against you. Was she wrong to go to Court when the Court gave judgment in her favour? Should she just have let you away with not paying her what you agreed? I don\'t see her as a \"poor woman\" or feel sorry for her. I see her as a strong woman who in the wake of your divorce has set some clear boundaries around dealing with you. She seems capable of getting what she wants and looking after herself. Obi I\'m sorry you have a stressful job, that you are having problems managing money, that you have lots of issues with your health and that your sons are upset every week. However just because we are feeling life is cr*p and things are getting on top of us and we can\'t cope with our stress does not give us a right to hit out and attack others. You can get help for your work stress. You can get help to organise your finances so that you can meet your committments and liabilities better so that you are not pursued for unpaid debts. You can consider how your reactions to stress affect your health. You can consider how your reactions generally cause and create stress for yourself. And you can do your bit to creating a calmer post divorce parenting relationship for your two sons by dealing with that stress. I\'d say spending time with a stressed out father who\'s only answer to dealing with stress is to get increasingly angry with their mother and dump all the blame on her will not be helping them or their stability. Any wonder they are hitting out. Time to start dealing with it Obi.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

yes owl- thats right- its my fault that the boys hit thier mum... they copied it - err... actually, i never hit her... wasnt she the one hitting me? mmm... vaguely remember that happening.. in fact - lets take it one step further - it was my fault she hit me too... yes- i just wouldnt do what i was told. i made her do it... passive abuse... by your def- she is doing that to me too... big time... had letter today from csa- will post on to court to show what a LYING BITCH she is... TTFN

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, if your boys are hitting out at their Mum or others they have issues that need sorting. It can\'t be easy for them living in such a highly conflicted post divorce parenting arrangement, nor can it be easy living with a stressed out, angry and bitter father. Perhaps you could do your bit to help them by dealing with your anger and stress constructively. Blaming their Mum is not dealing with it. You can be a better parent than that.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

the only issue they need sorting is living with her. She is working hard on my behalf to fix that though. Let\'s just agree to disagree owl? You think everything she does and has done is ok and justified as I am a hippocritical, god hating, passive abusing, poor parent. I don\'t.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I have never said everything she has said and done is OK. Its you that jumps to that conclusion and puts words in my mouth that I don\'t say. You are even telling me what I think now. How controlling is that. Your sons have some issues that they need some help to sort. Like its not Ok to hit your mother so hard she needs hospital treatment. I hope you are teaching them that and not passively supporting their abuse by implying to them its OK as she is cow and deserves it. I hope you are teaching them how to behave like honourable men and making them take responsibility for their actions. For the record Obi, I think many of your statements and accusations of your ex do veer on the hippocritical as you often accuse her of the very behaviour you exhibit on here. I don\'t think you bad for that just someone who is not coping with the stresses that a divorce brings. I don\'t think she is all bad either. Do you hate god? As an atheist he doesn\'t exist surely. I wouldn\'t care if you hated the christian god or any other god for that matter and certainly wouldn\'t pass judgment on you or think you a bad person for doing so. Passive abusive, well I\'d say you are often actively abusive, if your posts on here are anything to go by. Do you really maintain civility in real life? Poor parent? No I don\'t think you are a poor parent. I think you could be a better parent though if you could find a way to get some help to deal with your anger and bitterness so your sons are not exposed to it.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

so i am controlling so-(deep breath...) hippocrite, god hating, passive abusing, poor parent and now... controlling... and actively abusive now too... meaning i abuse people? sometimes, NOT saying something is as important as saying eh? isnt that part of your def of passive abuse? so- logic would say- your TOTAL rejection of my stance -my feelings- and NOT criticising ANYTHING she does- is SAYING YOU AGREE... putting it all back to me in effect - THATS what i hate about what you say... or rather what you dont say... i DONT expose my kids to anything... eg- today, they tell me thier beloved cat is missing... no 1 son says \'dad, it was mum... she dont like him and now she wont feed him and keeps shooing him away..\' both are upset... \'why does she do it dad?\' this behaviour makes me SO ANGRY - did i say \'your bitch mother is evil son thats why...\' ??? no... \'well son- sometime cats move home etc, mum would never do anything to hurt you...\' what a liar i am... she would/has/will... funny thats what she did to my old cat... i am abusive to you owl- because you are abusive to me... great line about i am not a poor parent... but I would say that a person that passively abuses thier ex, is an active abuser, displays hippocritical behaviour, is an active abuser and to top all is a controller too... VERY likely is NOT good parent material... as to the active abuse- if my partner said it -i would stop and think... but since its you - i will treat it with the contempt it deserves... i dont abuse anyone- i am widely thought of as being a nice chap- my gaffer described as the stoic, clever, thoughtful one... but- and it is a big BUT owl... after putting up with 8-years of BULLSHIT/violence/abuse/control and general vile behaviour... i WONT put up with it EVER again from ANYONE... including you.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

also- my behaviour on here? have i ever punched anyone here? spat in thier faces? bit them? kicked them? said they were morons all the time? (i have called the odd idiot that-oates...) thrown buckets of water over them at 0300hrs? driven a car at them? pulled a knife on them? told them i wished thier family die? said i prayed for thier deaths every day? said i wished thier niece die of cancer? laughed in thier face? embarrassed them in front of every person they care about? if not... then i guess your appraisal is a little off key eh...??? the above list is what she did to me on a daily/weekly basis... of course- that makes me a survivor of DV ... did i tell you i am now used as an example of male DV survivor? only an hour talk in the course with questions... the last feedback had interesting results... most said i was still making excuses for her appalling behaviour...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

the word for your behaviour is \'minimizing\'. When you do your thing of \'well she is just expressing her upset - strong woman that she is-etc\' It minimizes whatcshe has done and is doing...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, trotting out things that happened 4 years ago ad infinitum is not doing you any good. No you haven\'t done any of those things on here. Most if not all you can\'t do on an internet board The feedback you get above is not that interesting or unusual. All DV victims make excuses for their abusers. DV survivors don\'t. Thats why they are survivors not victims. You are still a victim, you have yet to access the help you need to be a survivor. \"\'well son- sometime cats move home etc, mum would never do anything to hurt you...\'\" Obi why do you tell your sons things you don\'t believe? You believe their mother is hurting them. What your son has expressed to you is he doesn\'t like the way his mother treats their family cat. All you have to do is acknowledge his feeling and say I\'m sorry you don\'t like that. Instead you import your anger, come to the conclusion your son is hurt, tell him his mother wouldn\'t hurt him (therefore implying to him she is doing it deliberately to hurt him) when you actually believe the opposite. The message you are giving your son is its not OK to say when you don\'t like something as an adult will just negate your feeling by telling you you shouldn\'t feel angry. Therefore your son won\'t learn how to constructively express his anger but will suppress it. And so the cycle continues. He learns what you were taught. Its bad to express your feelings about the things you don\'t like. Keep it buttoned up. The best way to handle the above situation is to acknowledge that he doesn\'t like the way your ex treats the cat, explain to him no one knows what has happened to the cat and then help him do something constructive to find it. How about hopping in the car with the boys and taking them door knocking around the neighbours, making signs up to post in local shops, putting an ad in the local newspaper. If the cat does not show up then offer to go out and get one for your place so they have a replacement when they stay with you. Then you can role model looking after a cat properly. All of that is actually doing something positive instead of berating your ex. I\'m not minimising anything she has done. But she like you is allowed to be upset. Thats where I see you as hippocritical. You think that as you label her as the abuser she has no rights. If she doesn\'t like that you don\'t do what your agreed she has to have remedy for that. That she chooses to pursue that remedy against you when you renege does not mean she is the bitch from hell. Everything has its context as well. Obi my ex once told me he wished my mother would die of cancer. Was he being abusive? No he was watching his own father die and was not coping. And he was hitting out at the person closest to him. He no more wanted to see my mother dead (who he cared about) than he wanted his Dad to die. Sometimes it helps to listen with compassion rather than react.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

if i replace the cat- she will do it again... and i would need her permission- she wont speak/write to me - so how can that be done? isnt it cruel to deliberately put an animal into that sit? i have told them- our cats are their cats too... your husband - was being very shitty. I think that was abuse... perhaps your ex dint want to see your mum dead- my ex would have loved it.. she laughed and said \'great news-god is punishing you...\' when i told her (stupidly) that my dad had leukemia... i dont just berate and do nothing... i do positive things- and berate. i never said she has no rights- but i have issue with anyone that says its someones right to inflict pain on another!!?? i have more empathy for my ex than you think... i know she is a broken and damaged mind... i have empathy for anyone who looses thier parents so young and has such a poor life... but... it does not give anyone the excuse to treat other people so bad...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi I was suggesting you get a cat that lives at your house not hers. ( I think my post clearly said that, so I will take this as another, \"Yes but\" which is your stock response to a positive suggestion) That way your boys still have a pet cat and can enjoy it when they are with you. Even if you have cats already this is about replacing the cat they have lost. They get to go and choose it. Its therapy for them. It may take a little effort on your part as you and your np would need to take on extra responsibility but isn\'t it worth it for your sons well being? No it wasn\'t abuse Obi, it was my husband hitting out. I was not offended by what he said as I recognised it for what it was. I told my Mum about it as I knew she would not be hurt by it given the context. She rang him and helped him through it and he was grateful for that. Someone listened. She didn\'t pass judgement, she listened. You might say you have empathy for your ex but you can\'t have empathy for something you have not experienced. You have no understanding of what its like to lose a parent and then be neglected by another. Judging her as damaged and broken was not listening or understanding. Obi its her right to take you to Court. You may not like it but its her right. People also have a right to take action that they know will hurt another or cause them pain. Pain is part of life, its not something to be run away from, its something that when it happens you have to deal with constructively. I agree hitting out at others because life is shitty is not OK. Perhaps you need to take that message on board also. You often use your stress as an excuse for your abuse on here. Its not OK Obi, and its hippocritical of you to berate someone else for doing that when you do it yourself and expect us to excuse you for it. You can\'t use the fact you are a DV victim to try and get away with things Obi. It just doesn\'t wash.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol- you accusing me of not reading the post... ha! MY post clearly says we have TWO cats already... the boys helped choose thier names!! lol... talk about the kettle calling the pot black... you werent offended!>!!>!>!! you get my vote for the next Pope... or \'Saint Owl...\' \'You might say you have empathy for your ex but you can\'t have empathy for something you have not experienced. lol... now i have heard it all.. Empathy IS THAT VERY THING!!!! having an emotional reaction to someone elses feelings - not because you know what its like... def- \"Empathy is the capacity to share and understand another\'s emotion and feelings. It is often characterized as the ability to \"put oneself into another\'s shoes\", or in some way experience what the other person is feeling. Empathy does not necessarily imply compassion, sympathy or empathic concern because this capacity can be present in context of compassionate or cruel behavior. So- by your def of empathy- noone could feel empathy for the victims of ANYTING they havent experienced... like murder! rape! lol... you make it up as you go along.. effectively reducing the amount of people that could feel it to survivors!!! i dont expect anyone to excuse me- i only have a problem with one person on this board owl- you- because of your \'holier than thou\' sanctimonious attitude towards me. AND your VERY obvious empathy (lol..) with my EX that - from your point of view - CAN DO NO WRONG!!! as to your pain comments- gee thanks - i never knew that... what about avoiding pain when you can? how about trying not to give pain when you can? \"People also have a right to take action that they know will hurt another or cause them pain\" its liberal bullshit like that that has caused half of the worlds issues... your husband probably loved you too- my ex dont... never did either... BIG diff... oh no- i forgot- you dont believe a word i say do you?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Yes Obi your post does say you have two cats already I read that, That doesn\'t stop you getting a replacement for the cat the boys have lost , that was my point. Obi you don\'t put yourself in her shoes, you sympathise but you can\'t \"experience\" what she is feeling. You have to have experienced her experience. People feel sympathy for rape victims not empathy. \"People also have a right to take action that they know will hurt another or cause them pain\" its liberal bullshit like that that has caused half of the worlds issues\" Its not liberal bullshit Obi, its a fact of life. You caused her pain by leaving her BUT you had a right to do it. Our actions do impact on others. Obi you can\'t define your ex\'s feelings, only she can do that. People don\'t seek revenge for someone leaving them as you imply if they didn\'t love them. Why would they? What is true is you felt unloved by her. Thats the truth the rest is just conjecture And by the sound of it you didn\'t love her, you have said so many times, you chose to marry a woman you didn\'t love. She is the bitch than hell for that, you were the crusading rescuing hero and in your books it made you agreat guy. More abject hypocrisy on your part. Imagine your outrage at her saying. \"I never loved him but he was so desperate to have a child I felt pressured by him and I felt sorry for him so despite the fact I didn\'t love him I married this poor english copper\" Own your own negative feelings, stop projecting them onto another person.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

why seek revenge? because i made things difficult for her... because she likes it... now you redefine empathy... you also TELL me what i feel... what hypocrisy... you are talking crap. the thing is- you project your thinking onto her... you know what? it dont mean anything - what you say... only actions mean anything... her actions define her ... violent, controlling, broken.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I\'m not telling you what you feel. You can\'t feel empathy for something you have not experienced. You can feel sympathy that the person went through a tough time and show compassion for them. But you can\'t feel the experience she went through as it wasn\'t your experience. It belongs to her. To seek to think you can is very controlling and invalidating. I\'d say any compassion you had for her went out the window along time ago which is fine. It is possible to both show compassion and draw a line and set a boundary around that persons behaviour. Constant berating and outbursts of anger show you have not been able to do that. Which is fine also. It is what it is. Broken is not an action Obi, its a state of being. You actions define you too, verbally abusive and blaming which leaves you in a state of being of angry and bitter.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I am angry and bitter because of her actions - not mine. The def of empathy does not mention having to have experienced the other persons state, now you know more than the Oxford dictionary too?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

You can choose to stay angry and bitter Obi or you can choose to move on. It would be better for your sons if you chose to deal with your feelings in a more constructive way so you can move on. You don\'t have to stay in a bitter and angry state, you can choose different actions, reactions and behaviour than the ones you are indulging in right now. While you keep blaming your ex you block yourself from doing that.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i\'m not a robot... i cant change how i feel... besides... i dont feel as if its down to me... she is the one with the problem- a violent/abusive/controlling nature. im not like that..

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, I agree you can\'t change how you feel. You can however change how you react to and deal with your feelings. The only person you can deal with is yourself. Its not easy, in fact its very hard. Yes you feel hurt by her actions both past and present. But there is neither a legal nor a practical remedy to stop her doing what you accuse her of. In fact in some cases she is just exercising her legal rights although you may find that hurtful and feel hurt and angry as a result. So you have to start finding a way to cope with your feelings and overcome them in a way that is not destructive for you. I bet you don\'t want to remain angry and bitter for the rest of your life. You can only rely on yourself to change that. If you are waiting for her to change so you feel better you are still choosing to be her victim. You don\'t have to, you can choose to survive.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I am angry and bitter because of her actions - not mine. The def of empathy does not mention having to have experienced the other persons state, now you know more than the Oxford dictionary too?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi you can\'t change her actions. You feel angry and bitter because her actions have that impact on you. You remain angry and bitter because you choose to remain that way. Take your anger at her for alleging you owe her unpaid CM. Her action had that impact on you, it made you ropable. You felt so angry. You then reacted by dredging up all your past hurts, then imagining the worst possible scenario of imminent bankruptcy, debtors prison or worse. Now its understandable that you feel angry that you are being accused of not paying a debt you have already paid. Allow yourself a moment to feel that anger, then switch to your logical mind. You know you have paid that debt. So all you needed to do was process how to prove it. A quick phone call for a statement of your CSA accounts and proof of your payment from your bank account of the CM you had previously paid is all you needed. Thats it end of. No need for drama and hysterics. Problem dealt with, then let it go, let your anger dissipate. Instead you put youself through an emotional wringer. Thats not looking after yourself Obi and we all have a responsibility to look after ourselves emotionally. Find the person who can teach you how to do that. Find the person who does not react with you but ensures that you look after yourself emotionally. Find the person who makes sure you do that. While you keep saying I am angry and bitter because of her actions you are choosing to remain in that state and you are choosing not to look after yourself emotionally. You just choose to be angry and bitter. Obi the oxford dictionary is just a text. Meanings of all words are up for debate and if you picked up another dictionary it would give a dufferent meaning. My point is that until you have experienced something you don\'t know what its like. Thats something you tell all those \"mums\" on here who have not been denied contact or have never been a nrp. Likewise you have never had a parent die and then been abandoned by your other parent. You don\'t know how that feels but you can imagine how it would feel and feel sympathy.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

yes owl- its called empathy..

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Whatever Obi. You still don\'t know how it feels to lose a parent and then be abandoned by your surviving parent just like you tell all those \"lady pwc\'s\" they don\'t know what it feels like to be denied contact and so they don\'t understand you. You can\'t understand your ex either and what she has gone through. You can only imagine.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

are you being deliberately obtuse? i never said i \'knew\' that\'s just silly... bad things have happened (happening...) to me too... but i dont behave like she does- and never will... i mean- she tells the school on tues that i had \'lost\' my sons homework- i then receive a call from a tearful son saying he will be punished and his mum is saying i am lying... i call the school to explain- and guess what? the homework is in the bag as i said it was... any apols? nahhh... i put it back to you owl- you dont know what she is like- you cant understand either by the sound of it...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, there you go over-reacting again. Just tell your son to look in his bag where you put it. Even if it wasn\'t there all you had to do was reassure him that his mum has already explained to the school that its not his fault so he won\'t be in trouble. Geez! Instead you go off on one because you think your ex is having a pot shot at you and telling tales to the school. React calmly and logically Obi. Your son needs reassurance. Why do you care whether you get an apology or not? Its not about you, its about reassuring your son.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

its difficult to reassure them over the phone- when your ex is in the background shouting \'he is a liar, dont believe him!\' its not overreacting- i am just telling you what she is like... she did tell the school it was down to me- they being NORMAL know that it was her madness doing its thing... i was calm and logical- i told my son not to worry- i called the school- explained that we did do the homework and we can do it again if required... it turned out that she completely went over the top as always - telling my son (aged EIGHT) he would be in trouble because of me... this is what she does- takes/uses any excuse or situation to cause upset to me - using the children to do it... you dont see this, i think due to your obvious empathy with her and her situation.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

You are over reacting, you react to all this stuff. If your ex is in the background shouting he is a liar, don\'t believe him clamly ask your son to go and have a look through his bag. So what if she told the school it was down to you. You certainly won\'t have been the first parent to have misplaced their child\'s homework. They are not going to come banging down your door seeking retribution. And if one parent said the other parent didn\'t put it in the child\'s bag they wouldn\'t think the parent telling them that mad! Thats your projection of her onto them At your child\'s age teachers here in NZ would gently tell the child that they need to take responsibility for making sure they bring their own homework and not expect their parent to pack it for them. All you needed to do was reassure your son he wouldn\'t be in trouble and you would sort it. She attacks, you react. You were enraged by her making you out to be the bad guy to your son, just like you were enraged that she would accuse you of not paying your debts and making you out to be the bad guy to the Court staff. You chose to be upset by this. If my ex did this to me I wouldn\'t be upset. I\'d leave it with him. I get accused of all sorts of things I haven\'t done by him but I don\'t care. I know its not my fault or problem. You know you are not the bad guy so why worry. If my child was worried I\'d do what a parent always does when they are worried. Reassure them. I\'ve done it hundreds of times and still do. our children will and do get upset, they will and do get upset by their parents, I know mine have been upset and p****d off at me at times. It happens to all parents whether good or bad, it passes. I wouldn\'t immediately get upset. While you keep reacting she will keep upsetting you. It works because you let it work. And yes Obi I do see. In fact I have a colleague who every Monday morning opens her emails to read of one parent accusing the other of not returning or keeping a child\'s possession after contact. It happens often, best strategy even for a sol is to advise their client to ignore. I see it often and I have experienced it. I just react differently to you. It doesn\'t hurt me as I choose not to take the emotional battering. I have learnt to look after myself emotionally.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

banging down doors? now who is over reacting...??? \'It doesn\'t hurt me as I choose not to take the emotional battering\' well... as Romeo once remarked, \'O, teach me how I should forget to think\' denying your emotions-and all that goes with them- is denying the thing that makes us human... she dont see how i react... so why do it? because she dont care how i react... she does it because she likes doing it... she is sadistical... doing things that she thinks makes me angry or sad - makes her feel powerful... in some ways- the more i show her i am not affected - the more extreme her attempts to succeed are... she is someone to be endured... thats all..

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Its not about denying your emotions Obi. You can still recognise and acknowledge your emotions and triggers. You can acknowledge that you feel angry or hurt or envious by her actions and situation. However you need to put aside the anger, hurt and envy to logically deal with the consequences of the situation as they arise and not blow things out of proportion otherwise your inability to deal with your emotions distorts the situation into something more than it is. \"she dont see how i react... so why do it? because she dont care how i react... she does it because she likes doing it... she is sadistical... doing things that she thinks makes me angry or sad - makes her feel powerful...\" Or son gets home from yours and says he can\'t find his homework. She immediately thinks you are being bloody difficult and making things difficult and she is fed up with the way you continually \"make her feel.\" She reacts by telling your son you should have put the homework in his bag, feels the martyr because she has to explain this to the school and expresses her frustration at you by telling your son you have \"caused him to be in trouble.\" It then escalates into a major issue as son phones you upset, you stress and fret, worry about how you will be viewed by both the school and your son. The loci of the fight then moves from your son not being able to locate his homework ( a simple practical issue to be dealt with) to the ongoing power struggle between the two of you and all your unresolved issues. You get caught up in it. THIS IS ABOUT AN EIGHT YEAR OLD BOY NOT BEING ABLE TO LOCATE HIS HOMEWORK NOT HER MOTIVATIONS AND YOUR FEELINGS OF VICTIMISATION AND POWERLESSNESS AT HER HANDS. So focus on your son and help him solve his problem. Once the problem is solved let it go. If you can\'t let your anger hurt and envy get some professional help to deal with those feelings so they are not impacting on your personal happiness like they are now. I\'m not saying she is handling the situation appropriately, but I don\'t think your over reaction is the appropriate way to respond either. And at times you over react to simple parenting issues and are keen to cast blame on her when all she is doing is being a parent. A child misplacing a toy is a case in point. I doubt she feels powerful Obi, I suspect she feels powerless and frustrated by you and it is her own feelings she is reacting to just like you are reacting to your own feelings of powerlessness and frustration. Like you she will think you are someone to be endured. Nothing more nothing less.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

this is the longest post on the site ? i think i did solve it... i just hate the crap that she spouts... anyway...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I think you did solve it too Obi, or it was solved. It wasn\'t much of an issue to start with really but it became one because it was blown out of proportion. You may hate the \"crap\" she spouts but try not to let it get to you so much. Its just \"crap\" after all. A bit more of the \"whatever\" stance and attitude may put you in a better frame of mind when you have to deal with her.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol.. blown out of proportion... i think going to court is a serious thing... you evidently dont... what does that say? whatever? lol... thats what my stroppy teenagers say to me... what does that say? i dont need to change my frame of mind- it\'s set into the right pattern... \'cautious-careful-passive\'

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I wasn\'t talking about going to Court Obi, but actually going to a civil Court to resolve an issue you can\'t agree on IS just a process. Its only a dispute resolution mechanism. I think the process when you are engaged in it should be taken seriously but I don\'t think the fact that you have to go to Court to resolve a dispute is the end of the world or in any way a slur on your character. I was referring to your son not being able to find his homework (something that happens in countless homes everyday and is sensibly resolved without drama) and the ensuing spat between you and your ex. It sort of got way out of proportion because of your emotional responses to each other. You don\'t end up in Court because an eight year old can\'t find his homework for pete\'s sake You don\'t have to verbalise \"whatever\" to your ex, you just need to find a way to stop her rantings getting to you so much. Its only her opinion so don\'t take it to heart. You may act passive but you don\'t feel passive, your reaction which may remain unexpressed is one of anger. You can still find ways to deal with your anger constructively and not deny and suppress it. The way you are dealing with it at the moment just leaves you in an angry bitter frame of mind. There is nothing wrong with saying firmly and assertively that you are not listening to her nonsense as you find it offensive. Then walk away, hang the phone up, get on with your day, leave her to it. And you are allowed to be like those \"stroppy teenagers\" sometimes. At least they are reacting honestly and expressing their true and gut feelings at the time even if it p**ses us parents off. Being passive is not the way to recover from DV. Who gave you the message you could not express your true feelings but had to be passive in the face of them?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

actions are everything... as romeo says, \'teach me how to think...\' you cant help that... its what you do with it...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I agree actions are everything Obi. But not expressing your anger and suppressing it is an action too. Passiveness when you don\'t feel passive is an action. The suppresssed anger turns inward so that the person affected is you. Learning how to assertively express your anger to the person you feel angry towards in a way that does not damage others or perhaps more importantly for you, yourself is a skill that will take you beyond the victimhood you feel trapped in now.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

if I even spoke expressing a small amount of anger to my ex she would be onto the police and I would find my self arrested and jobless pretty quick... She can say and do what she feels with me and the kids - I can do nothing on return. She can\'t be stopped, unless she chooses to. She won\'t because ofvthe rage she has towards the world and me.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, you can say calmly \"I feel angry when you accuse me of lying, I am not listening to this anymore\", then hang up or walk away. You didn\'t have to do anything more. Leave her anger with her to sort out, its not your issue. Sort and deal with the anger and rage it causes within you. No one will arrest you. If you are frightened of being arrested or think thats a possibility then don\'t have any contact with her. Don\'t answer the phone to her, don\'t ring, arrange for someone else to do pick ups and drop offs. You need to take responsibility for looking after yourself better.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol... you dont know her- like i do.. the last time i tried anything like that- she stopped me seeing the kids for 8 weeks... if i am not a good boy i am punished...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

If she breaches your contact order you take her to Court. But for someone who doesn\'t answer the phone to you, won\'t talk to you , you do let her get under your skin a lot.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

if i took her to court for every breach owl- they would need another one built... she dont have to do it direct- she does it by proxy- via the kids- my whole issue... if she did it direct- it would have little effect...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, have you ever taken her to Court for a breach of the order? Have you taken her to Court when she has not let you see the boys for 8 weeks in breach of the order? (or are you referring to what happened over three years ago when she stopped you seeing the boys when you started a new relationship and she wanted the position sorted vis a vis your new partner and the boys?) Or do you just sit by and let it happen and moan about being a victim? Of course she will keep breaching if you don\'t take any action. Because you are giving your consent by your inaction. Thats not dealing with the situation honestly and assertively Obi.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I repeat... i just dont have the money to waste on taking her to court - not for every breach... i would be working just to do that- remember it costs £200 just to file the papers... thats without legal rep... and at the end- nobody gets any further forward except the lawyers... which is why some people put on thier spiderman kit... and no- i wasnt referring to that- ... that breach was 12-weeks... and yes- i have breached her... she came up with some bullshit excuse and the judge went straight down the middle and did nada... its a waste of time... its a waste of money... i will be patient and wait for my moment... it may be years - but it will come...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

200 quid versus not seeing your kids for 8 weeks? Well I guess thats your call, but if they are as distressed as you say they are at not seeing you then I would have thought you would willingly pay 200 quid to ease that distress for them. I am not sure what moment you are waiting for Obi? The moment you get things the way you want them? The moment your boys take your side against her? Because thats very sad if thats what you long for. You will never be happy.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl-200 PER COURT SLOT!!!! I calculated that since the order was put in force- I would have paid out over 30,000 (in addition to the 27,000 it took to get the orderin the first place!!!) in breaches of the order- had I enforced them... combined- thats nearly half of the value of my home... I see your point- but I dont have a bottomless pit of money - which is what you need to deal with the court system in this country- if you work... I never really beleived the old \'two tier\' justice cries, until I started using it... no money- no court... its just that simple... The thing is- no matter what she says- or how much she tries to fake it- there is written proof that she stopped- and continues to stop on occasion- contact between the boys and me- for no good reason... not counting spite... As to the moment- I do know that she will regret this course of action one day- the kids will turn against her... I dont relish the thought... because my boys will be upset- I wish there was something i could do to stop it... but she is so vile- its only a matter of time... While they are so young- they do what they are told- but when they are teens- i can see serious trouble coming...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, you don\'t need to go to Court for every breach, many breaches are very trivial and won\'t even be noticed by your sons and will likely not affect them. But if you don\'t see your boys for 8 weeks without a good excuse and they are distressed by that you may need to look at putting in an application. If you have written proof that she stops and continues to stop contact for no good reason then its worth putting it before a judge. Its up to the judge to decide if it is a good reason that benefits the boys and really warrants contact not happening on that occasion. You don\'t know if your boys will turn against her or not. Its actually very rare for a child to turn totally against a parent for any significant period of time particularly one that has been very active in the lives and has not abandoned them. If your boys are angry at her when they are teenagers they won\'t be upset at not seeing her for a while while they play out their anger. Its very common for teenagers to question either parents authority. Its a normal part of growing up and even the best families have teenage rebellion issues over that period. Its not a major catastrophe. Your boys and her relationship going forward is for them to work through, its really none of your business. However it will be an isssue and could escalate into a major catastrophe if youi sit in the background and act as the \"good cop\" parent while passively supporting any aggression and negative expression of bad feeling they show towards their mother. While you may want that feeling of vindication, children who live in and come out of that type of dynamic often have more major reactions partly because they know they will have a willing supporter and enabler who will help them justify any actions both to themselves and to any outside authority. Many are unwittingly manipulated to extract someone elses revenge on their targeted victim while the real bully cowardly pretends he/she has nothing to do with it and as a result they come out very screwed up.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

the real bully? Finally - we get to your real thoughts about me. I won\'t support my ex wifes mad behaviour - I am a passive bully? I won\'t take sides in a dispute I have not witnessed... Here\'s one for you ... If the boys start pushing the boundaries as teens do, I should support my ex? Even when she is wrong? Even when she makes my sons miserable? why should I? Who looks after my interests

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

who is going to be looking after me- when the boys do it to her? will she support me? i dont think she will... she hates my guts... and you are beginning to annoy me... this is not helping me- i think its time for a holiday...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

your post sickens me... abandoned... passive aggressive... coward... you have upset me... what venom you have- more than her...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi who is asking you to support your ex wife\'s behaviour? I\'m not. But if the boys start pushing the boundaries as teenagers your job as a parent is to support the adults in their lives who have care for them be they teachers, their family, their other parent to enforce acceptable limits. It doesn\'t matter if she supports you or not. One parent has to do the best for their children. And standing passively by enabling your sons to push boundaries and rebel because you don\'t think your ex deserves any support will not be doing the best by your sons. It may make you feel better and less aggrieved but at what cost. Strange how you interpret my posts as venom. I have none. Maybe you have a habit of misreading and misinterpreting venom.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I won\'t give her support - she won\'t take it - she don\'t want it- she is poison .. I won\'t know if they push boundaries... She don\'t communicate with me.. As I say its VERY obvious to me what you think of me ... And her ... Calling me a coward too? What other insult will you dish up? What is left ???

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, you will know if they are pushing the boundaries. They will let you know about it. They will turn to you to help them do it. Its what children of highly conflicted divorce do. The support you will have to give for your sons sake is setting limits for them and letting them know when their behaviour is not OK. If that means \"supporting\" their mothers limits and boundaries that she is setting then yes you will be \"supporting\" her whether you like it or she wants it. Its about the kids not the two of you. I\'m pleased its obvious to you what I think of you. Its not obvious to me. You have again misinterpreted what I have said. You have concluded that I have accused you of abandoning your children and being a coward. For the record I don\'t think you have abandoned your children, far from it I think you have stuck by them through thick and thin. But you seem you have issues snd guilt around that. Deal with it. Re read what I said and you will see I said it was rare for children to totally neglect a parent unless they had been abandoned by them. Did I say you had abandoned your children? And I have not called you a coward. I have touched on a pattern of behaviour that is prevalent in divorced parenting situations where one parent plays the good cop while secretly undermining the other parent. If you recognise your behaviour as being similar or have a burning unexpressed desire to do that to get vindication you will see it as an accusation. Again your issue. I have no opinion of your ex for the record. What do you think I think of her? You may have to leardn Obi that when someone comments on your behaviour and reactions and gives you feedback thats all they are doing. It doesn\'t mean they think your ex is right and virtuous and you are right and bad. Again that you can\'t see that is your issue.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, you will know if they are pushing the boundaries. They will let you know about it. They will turn to you to help them do it. Its what children of highly conflicted divorce do. The support you will have to give for your sons sake is setting limits for them and letting them know when their behaviour is not OK. If that means \"supporting\" their mothers limits and boundaries that she is setting then yes you will be \"supporting\" her whether you like it or she wants it. Its about the kids not the two of you. I\'m pleased its obvious to you what I think of you. Its not obvious to me. You have again misinterpreted what I have said. You have concluded that I have accused you of abandoning your children and being a coward. For the record I don\'t think you have abandoned your children, far from it I think you have stuck by them through thick and thin. But you seem you have issues snd guilt around that. Deal with it. Re read what I said and you will see I said it was rare for children to totally neglect a parent unless they had been abandoned by them. Did I say you had abandoned your children? And I have not called you a coward. I have touched on a pattern of behaviour that is prevalent in divorced parenting situations where one parent plays the good cop while secretly undermining the other parent. If you recognise your behaviour as being similar or have a burning unexpressed desire to do that to get vindication you will see it as an accusation. Again your issue. I have no opinion of your ex for the record. What do you think I think of her? You may have to leardn Obi that when someone comments on your behaviour and reactions and gives you feedback thats all they are doing. It doesn\'t mean they think your ex is right and virtuous and you are right and bad. Again that you can\'t see that is your issue.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

It doesn\'t mean they think your ex is right and virtuous and you are right and bad. That should be \"wrong and bad\"

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I think your mental picture of ex is a poor abandoned woman fighting against an ex that passively attacks her at every op. A woman like you having to cope on her own with children and all that goes with it. She chooses to be like this... She could allow the kids to see me more - she does not... She chooses to limit contact because she knows its what I want - its not relevant to her what they want. Say what you want - that fact cannot be challenged. She is vile.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Obi my good fellow. Skimming over this, I\'m thinking you are either: A very bad wind up merchant, or Slightly.....no totally, off your head. I regret not following this one, but evr does have a good point which I noticed you struggled to argue constructively with. I don\'t think anyone here overly sympathises with Darth, but there is a just a wee tad more balance on here than there seems to be between your ears. You\'ve surpassed your previous best efforts at making mountains out of molehills this time. Oh, and for what it\'s worth, you don\'t have a stressful job, well no more stressful than a host of men and women out there. I doubt there is such a thing myself. It\'s how you handle it that makes you stressed (and that is understandable too). It\'s a bit like divorce and dealing with the ex in some respects. You make it much more stressful than it needs to be. That\'s not to say I don\'t get stressed by work or the ex occasionally of course. I just don\'t let it consume me any more. Either that, or I\'m a bit thick, cos I just can\'t see Owl has this hateful, venomous person you describe. Maybe I just can\'t work out people? Perhaps you are the voice of reason, and the regulars on here are all nuts. Yeah, that\'s what it is.....but then how is it they helped me get through all this and not become like you whilst dealing with a divorce, and in some respects, and equally horrible and vengeful woman?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I don\'t have a stressful job? LOL you lost me after that one... You are thick? I don\'t know... But you can\'t read that\'s for sure... Owl has called me all sorts of things in this thread. So I am mental too? Just add it to the list of things I am - according to owl... Thing is about stress- its like pain- its what the patient says it is- not what you think I am or should be feeling... The main diff between me and most here is my problems are never ending - my ex does not stop looking for ways to cause problems for me... Its not possible for me to move on.. As to your comments about my sanity - you can take them put them with your trite and sarcastic thoughts and shove them up your ass ... To tell you the truth I am looking for another job outside ofvthe police - I am just sick of the way people and the media portray us.. Had enough ofvyou lot too...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I love all those armchair coppers that think that policing is some kind of product they buy and when it don\'t give them what they want they throw one... I have never said my job is more stressful than anyone elses... Also I have never said its more dangerous.. Indeed, there are more risky jobs... Thing is.. I don\'t see it as a job- its a vocation.. I have have been threatened with knives, guns (really), punched, spat on, kicked - called every name under the sun, risked my neck in car pursuits - Not many \'jobs\' have that on the application form. One thing I have always admired about Americans is how they think of their police - they just give them so much more respect than we give ours - I think its that they see that we (public sector workers) devote their lives to serve others- here we think that people who think this way are mental or up themselves... I can\'t tell you what a warm feeling that gives me...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

You\'re nothing if you\'re not predictable Obi. And over here, arse has an R! Thing is about stress- its like pain- its what the patient says it is- not what you think I am or should be feeling... Indeed, I agree. However, you stated that your job was the thing that was stressful. So now, you\'re saying it\'s you and not your job, it makes more sense. Everyone\'s problems are never ending Obi. It\'s just some of us don\'t get quite as bogged done as you do, and I think most, if not all the people on this board have been in that position shortly after break up, where the world seems like it will end by close of play each day. Time helps people see that is not the case, yet many of their circumstances remain the same as they did on the blackest of black days. My suggestion was that your job in particular is not stressful simply because of the subject matter. My opinion is that jobs, or particular events are as stressful as you make them. To say your job is stressful, whilst say your ex\'s as a mother is not, is not to consider all the facts in a balanced way. So, yes, if your job is stressful, then so can a janitors (for example, and I have nothing against them). There are a variety of things that may result in a particular janitor having more stress in his work that say, a particular kiddy fiddler policeman. It would depend on the make up of each individual. Public service workers do not \"devote\" themselves to serve others Obi. Most are just tyring to make ends meet. I do love the way that you portray yourself as a super hero. I\'ve yet to meet anyone who\'s job, or vocation for that matter, is quite so dramatic as yours. Your reply to me seems to support the fact that you\'ve lost the plot though.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

if I wanted to spell arse I would have... As I said - most people - you are a prime example- dont think of people that risk life and limb to save them from harm as Heros ... I guess that says a lot ... About our country and you... I have lost mates at work - killed to help make society a place you can live in a bit safer... I suppose that means nothing to people like you? However, since it dont I guess I waste my time... As I indicated above-a lot people in the states are perplexed at our attitude to rescue and police here... You answer just confirms that ...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

Oh btw- love the comparison with the two jobs - a person that cleans toilets and a person responsible for watching some of the nastiest offenders in society :-) Fantasic... Thanks... I will pass that on to the boys and girls at work ..

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

You miss the point a tad Obi. Rather consistently so. I have lost mates at work - killed to help make society a place you can live in a bit safer... I suppose that means nothing to people like you? Me too. Maybe not as often as you. But then again, you seem to buy into the media circus that would have us believe that there are monsters lurking around every corner, and that our kids should never be out of our site. The way you write it, you never spend any time behind the safety of your PC, sitting in your shirt and tie, drinking coffee and surfing eBay. Are you seriously telling me that there is not a single police person who just turns up, takes the cash, does the bare minimum to keep their job and then go home again. If not, then I find that quite a unique profession. The janitor, may be twice the man you are. Judging a person by their profession is madness. Here\'s a different way to look at it.... Corporal Blogs is killed in Iraq. We are told he is a hero. He has (apparently) given his life to protect others. Perhaps this is true. Or perhaps he was a waste of space, in the army because he gets to shoot people, has shagged every prostitue in Baghdad whilst his wife brings up 2 kids at home, awaiting his return, only for him to batter her every time he gets back. The character of the man is what defines him.....not his job. You see? Aspiring to the American ideal?? You\'re not a Luton Town fan are you?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

as I say thanks for the support .. You dont deserve police... None of you.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I am in the process of looking for another job- anything will do... I just have reached a point where i can see how little thanks my profession gets for the work they do... I have never told anyone this but when I lived with her I found a lump in my chest- I wentvto the doc and after a few tests it turned out to be non- malignant.. I remember my doctor expressing surprise that a) my \'wife\' didn\'t attend the appointment with me for support and b) my reaction appeared to be disappointment.. She asked me why I felt this way and I could only say that dying seemed the easier option... My ex was similary disappointed when I told her the results... She told me it shook her faith that something she prayed so hard for didn\'t happen. I am glad I didn\'t of course but there are times...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I don\'t get what you\'re after from this board Obi. If you want unconditional positive regard then surely you have family and friends and colleagues who can provide that? Why persist here? You don\'t listen, you don\'t engage in discussion, you don\'t move on from your fixed self-pitying stance, in fact you try and up the ante..you don\'t get the responses you would like yet you can\'t work out why. If it upsets you and you don\'t get what you need, then don\'t post - it\'s as easy as that.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

recognition of my status as a survivor of domestic abuse? People believing me that it happened? People saying they think my profession is worthwhile ? I do engage in discussion- I dont post new threads any more as I dont think people Believe me anymore ... I have been called everything from \'liar\' to self important etc\' I look at threads for opportunity to post my thoughts on peoples problems with my 20-years of police experience... In return- I have been insulted, ridiculed and my experiences minimized... If you dont want to read my thoughts you dont have to read them...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

as to your appraisal of my postings- I do listen - I dont agree with a lot of what is posted and I dont agree that I have recieved positive support here- as to upping the ante - I freely revealed something I have not even told my parents... Your response to that speaks volumes ... I can\'t understand why people dont see my position as a continuing victim of abuse- owl in particular seems to go out of here way to find ways of justifying my ex wifes behaviour - no matter how bad it is... Have you thought of the effect that a constant refusal to acknowledge that a person has been or is facing a difficultvand abusive ex partner-my have on them? That they may start to question if they in some way deserved the abuse? That perhaps I may think its all just in my mind? Would they have took this stance with a female victim? I wonder?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

People get fed up of you going on obi, it\'s as simple as that - it\'s not about disbelieving you, it\'s not about the police, it\'s not about you being a man - it\'s because you go on and on and on about how awful everyone is to poor old you, and it\'s tedious. You really come over as incredibly emotionally manipulative - sorry, doesn\'t work with me. If you need validation from anonymous posters on a message board, you\'re in trouble - you need to get some real life help.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Obi, I learned from people on this board that although my ex was difficult, she also had issues to face. Owl (amongst others) has hit me with a few hard home truths over the years. They have been helpful, if uncomfortable at times. I\'m not sure I\'ve seen you accept an alternative POV that you consider even remotely possible, and that is why people don\'t think you engage in discussion. You ignore all points being made, and rant one. I recall not too long ago that evr (I think) made a comment about me supporting you through a whole festive period, yet you took nothing at all onboard, and in the end it degraded to the usual bun fight. (I\'m not looking for thanks, I was at work, so I was hardly putting myself out). I think we all accept you survived domestic abuse. In the same way that I advise people that having certain opinons of their ex partner should not let these opinions affect contact/parenting decisions, I think you should concentrate on your contact and not the abuse. It is actually over. If it\'s not, it\'s because you don\'t want it to be. Most of us probably believe what happened too. How relevant is it now? You profession is a worthwhile one. Feel better now? I must question the interview process, it seems a bit shoddy to me though. We\'ve all been insulted from time to time. You love it though, hence you invite it. Ask yourself, if there are so many varied people on this board, and for the most part everyone\'s position is considered, why are you the only one throwing the toys out the pram? The rest of us can agree to disagree most of the time.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I am predicatable? BFS classic line about police recruitment process- meaning that I shoulnt have been picked as I am mad? As to noidea- a person with a more appropriate name I can\'t think of... For me - now - I just dont take shit from people any more - not from her and not from you... Emotional manipulator? Well first- you feel emotional about my posting? LOL sorry, who is the mad person here? I thought it was me ... Since I first reported her to the police and then spoke openly on this board I have NOT been believed... I mean - I am off to court TOMORROW and will have to face her again and hear her lies... Do you have any idea of how much I dread it? I think you behave this way towards me because as a police officer you expect me to just take it and smile like dixon of dock green would... And not be the upset and \'whiney\' not man I am... Going on about it? I dont remember either of you saying the same to ER when every post she reminds us of how her ex did her and she pays for everything? Diff? ER is a woman and women are allowed to be as emotional and as whiney as they want ... As to me being different - I think I am unique - which other men that post are survivors? Are being taken to court on a twice yearly basis for crap? Have to put up with an ex like mine? I think your posts verge on abuse...

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I have just read my posts from the thread above and noticed when it went wrong- just after my suggestion some PWC keep the Kids to stay on the gravy train... I was sort of agreeing with stu who commented that a lot of PWC moan about having the kids all the time then fight like mad to keep them... I commented that it took me 18 months and £20,000 to bring my own sorry existence to its glory filled current state... Then I had to listen to owl state I was a hippocrite etc\' I can see now where I went wrong- I should have stuck to my - go fuck youself comment and left it at that.. I didn\'t because I thought - why should I? Why should I be told what to do and how to think by her?

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

For the record, I have more than once berated ER for taking shite. The difference is, it\'s water off a ducks back with her. I don\'t recall her ever throwing a tantrum about it. I\'ve seen several similar posts directed at her over the years from regulars on the board. CAn\'t say I\'ve had a falling out with her about it though. After 3 million words, it doesn\'t seem like you\'ve learned a thing Obi. THat\'s the good thing about learning......it\'s optional. Try opting in.

BFS

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

For the record, I (and some of the regulars) have given ER some stick in the past Obi. She doesn\'t react like a 3 years though.

BFS

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Oops....I\'m losing it....

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

that\'s her choice - I challenge bullshit... I dont eat it.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

So, one one hand you are complaining because (apparently) she doesn\'t get equal treatment to you. Because she\'s a woman? That\'s brilliant. She\'s already demonstrated she\'s got bigger balls than you by dealing with idiots like me on a message board. The poor little defenselesss woman has done exactly what most of us tell our kids about bullies, and she\'s ignored them. She may go on a bit, but she\'s more equipped to deal with adverse situations than you are....despite your years of being a victim of dom abuse, something she has never claimed to my knowledge. I would have thought that you\'d be better at it by now with all that practice? On the other, she roles over and allows herself to be bullied. Which is it Obi? Who\'s the smart one? You\'re so wrapped up in being a victim that you over react to almost anything. We are all challenging bullshit too. Maybe you are too perfect to see that? You\'re obsession with once being a victim of bullying is overly affecting your life today in my opinion. You actually make me think my ex is reasonable occasionally. Well done, that\'s not easily done. By the way, I\'m more than happy to discuss it seriously with you. You seem reluctant though. Forget about your job, your ex and try thinking about the real issues, like what you can actually influence and what you can\'t. But if you don\'t want to do that, I enjoy this childish one-up-man-ship just as much. It gives me a break from my work for an hour each night. You\'ve taken exception to my opinion, and it is a valid one, that your job is not stressful, and you are are stressed by your job. Have you come back with an argument to support your decision? Nope. The best you could do is, I don\'t have a stressful job? LOL you lost me after that one...You are thick? I don\'t know... But you can\'t read that\'s for sure... You\'ve taken the massive leap from there that I think all police people are either stupid, worthless or basic scum I think. Not sure how you managed that. Don\'t you think that supports the train of thought that you can\'t engage in discussion? Or are you going to come back, tell me I\'m an arse hole and that I don\'t deserve a police force. Or perhaps that I a seagul? Been a while since that one came out. Try getting back to the point Obi, believe it or not, I\'m pretty sure most of us, included the lovely Owl would actually love you to be in a better state of mind, and have a decent relationship with your boys.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"As to me being different - I think I am unique - which other men that post are survivors? Are being taken to court on a twice yearly basis for crap? Have to put up with an ex like mine?\" No Obi you are not unique. Hundreds of DV survivors are taken to Court on a far more than twice yearly basis by the ex\'s who perpetrated the DV. The stories you recount of your ex are not that unique either. I\'ve read them in many affidavits. If you read other mens stories on here most if not all are survivors. Have some empathy for your fellow posters instead of expecting all the empathy to be directed at you. \"If you need validation from anonymous posters on a message board, you\'re in trouble - you need to get some real life help.\" I find myself agreeing with no idea on that one Obi. Does your partner belive you? Do your parents believe you? Do all your significant others believe you? If you answer yes to do that what other validation do you need? I don\'t think it is validation you are looking for though but vindication. What you want the Courts and the Police to do is tell her she is a \"bad girl\" for doing what she did to you and ongoingly admonish her for not giving you what you want when you demand it. That they don\'t do that and force her to just accede to your demands burns you up inside mainly because you can\'t turn to them to assert the control over her you desperately seek. Its not the role of the Courts or the Police to do that (something you should know). It is their role to investigate alleged breaches of the either the criminal or civil law (and in the case of the Courts both when they are submitted to it) and And yes you do come across as emotionally manipulative, you exhibit emotional manipulation on this board all the time, its there for us all to see. We can only surmise that you do it in your real life interpersonal dealings too. And before you ask me if I would say that to a real life \"woman\" victim of DV Obi, well yes I would and have. I have challenged DV victims on that score, because DV victims are just as capable of enaging in emotional manipulation of another to get their unmet needs met by that person as anyone else. And I have challenged ER for her views on how hard done by she is many times and suggested that she has no basis for ongoing complaint. (although I can understand her frustration that her children\'s father will only assume limited responsibility for their welfare and upbringing). Lastly I was interested to read that I you thought my opinion of your ex was that of a poor abandoned wife like me struggling to bring up the children alone. For the record Obi I have never seen myself as a \"poor abandoned wife struggling to bring the children up alone\" although that is a a remark I have had from my ex as he gives his opinion of what I am. I see myself as an independent single woman who is capable of meeting the parenting needs of her children. Its you who thinks in terms of deficits. I am not sure how your ex sees herself but just maybe Obi she has a differing reality that the one your seek to construct for her and impose on her. Maybe she views herself as an independent single woman and mother who is getting on with fulfilling her parenting role and carving out a life for herself. Perhaps she doesn\'t define herself by what \"you have done to her\" Maybe its time you learned a lesson from that and stopped seeking to define yourself by \"what she has done to you\". In other words stop trying to define yourself as a \"victim\". You won\'t need to keep seeking validation for that role then. Only you can do that. You then won\'t have a need to emotionally manipulate others into rescuing you and validating you. Good luck.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

BFS- since you seem incapable of independent thought I will spell it out to you- My job is stressful because:- I have to deal with some if the most dangerous peoplecin society and if I make an error children my be abused. I have to deal with victims of abuse (ok according to owl the Oxford dictionary def of empathy dont exist - but I feel for them).. I have to tell parents and loved ones that people they loved are dead... I did 6 in one night once... I have to face people -like you- that dislike ne purely because of what I do.. I work to deadlines that if missed have effects to court and case law for years to come.. I face personal danger from weapons. More? Bullies dont go away by ignoring them- only by facing them do you defeat that issue. I have a great relationship with my boys- that\'s the problem its only for 6 days out of 30 ... She won\'t \'allow\' any more.. Justify that owl... 2 kids want to see me she won\'t allow it... When they asked to live with me her response ? She threatens to leave them and never see them again! And I am the manipulator!!! You have no idea what you are talking about.

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Yes your job has stress in it Obi. So do lots of jobs. Some have all the elements you list and more. But guess what Obi its your personal choice to be a policeman. No one forces you to do it. If you or anyone can\'t handle the inherent stress in their job then they should leave and find a job that is more suited to their capacity to cope with stress. That way the public are better served by having someone more suited to the role. Perhaps in looking for another job you have taken responsibility for your inability to deal with your workplace stress. Anyway the most strident criticism I have heard from the police in any of your postings comes from your own mouth Obi and is your beef with them. That they do not take allegations of abuse seriously. Well they didn\'t believe you did they and you feel that you have suffered such extreme abuse that you are unique. So much for the crusading police force that serves its public admirably. For the record I do respect what the police do. Its you that has an issue with their performance as they failed to do their job and protect you from abuse. Obi if your two boys want to see you more than what they do now then go to Court and make your case for them. You went to Court and agreed by consent to a Court Order which set out the agreed times you would each see the children. Now if you want to vary that agreement you have with her then you have to apply to the Court. Thats the process you set in place. You talked tough and saw it as the best process at the time. Now you are stuck with it and have to live by it. You were standing up to a \"bully\" then too as I remember. But maybe you will need to give up your stressful job to \"allow\" them to see you more as I understand you will have to work 22 days out of that 30. By working those 22 days you do not \"allow\" them to see more of you. You are a manipulator because you engage in the following behaviour. When people don\'t agree with you you throw your toys out of the pram and have a hissy fit hoping that that will induce them to agree with you. When people don\'t agree with you you make out you are leaving the board and say it is all because of them in an attempt to make them feel guilty in the hope they will feel sorry for you. When people don\'t agree with you or present an alternative view you seek to portray them as \"mad\" in the hope that they feel bad about their honest expression of their views rather than engage in reasoned discussion. When people don\'t agree with you or present an alternative viewpoint you misinterpret what they say to meet your own ends often deliberately using flawed logic to wrongly accuse them of making some accusation against you that they clearly did not make. When people don\'t agree with you or present an alternative viewpoint or when you are called on any of the above you simply hurl abuse rather than engage in discussion. When people don\'t agree with you or present an alternative viewpoint you admonish them for not validating you as the \"victim\", mainly because you are so entrenched in your need and desire to be a victim. And then you talk tough about facing and standing up to bullies. Those who have the real courage to stand up to bullies don\'t need the hold tight to the mantle of victim like you do Obi. They have discarded it. The problem for you Obi ids that none of the above emotional manipulation tactics works with regular posters on this board. I\'d say those tactics stopped working with your ex some time ago too. They won\'t work with the police or the Courts either. What will work is following due process, presenting reasoned and clear arguments to those appointed to listen through that process as to why your sons need to see you more. Emotional arguments and manipulation of facts will only leave you looking like an emotional manipulator to the professionals in those forums.

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

opps- computer issues... i dont wish to manipulate anyone... for me- maniplulation is based on falsehoods- i havent told any lies here... i didnt try to or succeeded in manipulating my ex- if i did anything naughty with her- she would hit me with a saucepan... I intended to take her to court this month - but now i have to defend this spurious claim i am not paying the CM... as to the job - \'if you cant stand the heat- stay out of the kitchen\'? that thinking went out a long time ago... I didnt say i couldnt handle the stress- but I feel insulted when people that have never done my job say what it is or isnt... question- why do you put \"allow\" in commas? for someone that purports to be supportive- you certainly like to push the buttons... I would like, the boys would like to see me for half of the month- 15-days instead of 6... if i work some of those days- so be it... people with thier kids have to- why should i be any different... you make me laugh owl- and thats good... you say all of those \'i am wise etc\' and \'you are the manipluator\' etc then you throw in the odd barbed comment- like \' I understand you will have to work 22 days out of that 30. By working those 22 days you do not \"allow\" them to see more of you\' lol... its just as stuart says... they moan when you have them- they moan when you dont... i try to present clear arguments- but you will NEVER say anything bad about my ex... oh and i define my ex on my experience of dealing with her NOW not then... if it looks like a duck, quacks and lives on a pond- its a duck... probably... anyway off to court - i will pop a book down my trousers... I will post the result...

Owl1

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

You should look up emotional manipulation Obi, its not based on falsehoods , its perpetrated by threats and behaviour that is intended to emotionally manipulate the target to give you the response you want from them. Thats behaviour you have exhibited on this board. I base my observations on actual evidence you have presented in and through your postings. You can no longer do that with your ex as she has shut down all contact with you and thus has removed any opportunity for it. Or was that what your as yet unfollowed through threat to go to Court was about? Follow through Obi, follow through. Obi some jobs have factors that will cause the individuals that perform them to experience undue stress when they have to undertake the tasks of the job. If you can\'t meet the demands of the job and deal with the stress it causes you then you need to look for a different career. Policeman need to be able to cope with not being liked, with filing documents in a timely manner in Court, with facing dangerous situations, with dealing with victims of abuse, with making on the spot decisions. I have to deal with nearly all those situations in my job plus face the prospect of being sued in negligence if I stuff up. Its up to me to handle any stress it causes in me and I don\'t have taxpayer funded counselling to assist. If I can\'t cope with the stress it induces in me it doesn\'t occur to me to moan to all sundry about how hard done by I am. Its my problem not theirs and I take personal responsibility for addressing it. In other words I choose to do what I do and I take responsibility for that choice. Thats BFS\'s point. You seem unable to grasp it or to take personal responsibility for your career choices and the impact of the stress on you as an individual as a result of your choice. So Obi if you have to work 9 days of your 15 will you let their mother look after them on those 9 days when you can\'t be with them and look after them. Or will you send them off to be looked after by a non-parent stranger. Because you admonish her for that. I trust you won\'t do to her what you admonish her for doing to you ? It wasn\'t meant as a barbed comment, just an observation for you to ponder. You rant how much your boys need to see you and berate their mother for not \"allowing\" it but you don\'t \"allow\" them to see you in that time by choosing to spend it at work. How do you reconcile that? I am just interested. If your kids want to see you for 15 days of 30 how about you making the changes in your life first to make that possible? Or do you choose to continue to work in that time to provide a roof over the head for someones elses children and their mother? How do you prioritise your son\'s interests and wishes over that? As I understand your ex is not moaning about you not having the boys, you keep posting on here that she wants to stop all contact as she hates you. Again how do you reconcile those statements. So you define your ex as you experience her now - You have defined her as a \"poor abandoned wife struggling on her own with the kids\" Thats your definition. From your postings its not how she presents herself to you. You post she doesn\'t want your help and support and berate her for it. She doesn\'t want to talk with you or have any contact with you but you berate her for that. And yet you tell us you don\'t want that either and feel you are justified in asking for and expecting that from her. Again how do you reconcile that? You tell us that she is really P**sed off that she can\'t bully you anymore but you keep telling us that you feel bullied by her and that you continue to be her victim. How do you reconcile that?

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

oh dear- you really need it cut up into little pieces dont you? ok- 1st point - career... yes its my choice- but even with jobs you love there is stress- i agree it may be that i have too much on my plate at the moment - i have asked for a transfer to a less stressful environment at work and i am looking for another job too... (didnt i say that above?) so hopefully that will be one ticked off the list eh? 2nd point... following through the real reason i am at court today is not the CM... its because I asked her or her sol - to review the contact schedule- this is nothing more than a tit for tat... (see new post for result)... I cant do the court until next month- just not finacially viable... it has to be court as there is just no dialog with her ... 3rd point ... contact should i be sucessful.. my job allows me to work around the contact issues- thats a reality of the modern police force (opps service...) there wont often be times where my partner (who the boys love and say she is their other mummy) has to look after them. Less times that she farms them out or leaves them on the doorstep for a hour at a time... your statement \'As I understand your ex is not moaning about you not having the boys, you keep posting on here that she wants to stop all contact as she hates you. Again how do you reconcile those statements.\' dont make sense.. it would make her life complete should i STOP contact!!! may i remind you - she fought for 18-months and spend 20-30 THOUSAND quid proving that???? she knows i will breach her and its more difficult now- the boys are older and complain in a big way when they cant see me- also the school seem to be more in my camp and while she dont care if I live or die -she does care about what they say... she cant DIRECTLY piss me off now - so she does the next best thing- via the kids- or on the phone or by spurious court action... i didnt define her as that- i think that what you see her as... again in the above post we see where your empathy (opps... you dont believe in that do you...) whatever - is ... also- i take GREAT exception to your opening gambit- that i am the abuser here and she has shut down the lines of communication to prevent me abusing!!! christ on a bike- i left her!!! not the reverse!!! anyway...

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

and... what threats have i made ? to whom? i have just read your comment a bit deeper- you are accusing me of abuse AGAIN!!! \'You can no longer do that with your ex as she has shut down all contact with you and thus has removed any opportunity for it.\' i just makes me even more sure that you are just trying to push the buttons... what a thing to say... i hope you are proud of yourself... is this some kind of payback? did your ex do this to you?

BFS

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Obi, I don\'t have time to read all the way through you and Owl\'s conversation, but to answer your last post to me- And please remember, I did say that it\'s understandable to be stressed to some degree in your job. I\'m not entirely dismissing the concept. BFS- since you seem incapable of independent thought I will spell it out to you- My job is stressful because:- Why am I incapable of independant thought? Pots and kettles?? I\'m genuinely curious how you arrived at that conclusion. I have to deal with some if the most dangerous peoplecin society and if I make an error children my be abused. Sure you do. Does every copper feel as stressed as you do about it? Do you deal with these people every minute of every day? Or, are you telling me that every single person you deal with is a potential Ian Huntley? You\'ve ignored the point that you can\'t be dealing with these people 8 hrs a day, every week. I have a demanding job Obi, we find time to stop, shoot the shit with each other, talk about sex, drugs and rock and roll. We don\'t spend all day hypothesising about crashing helicopters, for instance. Or explosions. Or sending people home seriously injured. It\'s just work. Not withstanding that some people are more resilient than others, it\'s only as stressful as I let it be. I have to deal with victims of abuse (ok according to owl the Oxford dictionary def of empathy dont exist - but I feel for them).. Sure you do. Aren\'t you trained for this? In my workplace, efforts are made to manage stressful situations. I\'d be surprised if the old bill didn\'t recognise this up front, and at least try to put measures in place to ease your stress. I have to tell parents and loved ones that people they loved are dead... I did 6 in one night once... And I\'m sorry you have to do this. But tell me, in your x years on the force, just how many times have you have to do this? Ball park. Is 6 in one night the norm or the exception? Are you possibly painting a very one sided picture here? I have to face people -like you- that dislike ne purely because of what I do.. Obi\'s imagination runs riot. I don\'t really think I dislike you. If I think you are a plonker occasionally, it\'s not because of your job. I work to deadlines that if missed have effects to court and case law for years to come.. Almost everyone works to deadlines. Missing them has consequences for everyone, in every walk of life. I face personal danger from weapons. Again, give us the full picture. How often in all your time in the force? A bouncer faces more danger on an average Friday night. Bullies dont go away by ignoring them- only by facing them do you defeat that issue. Bollocks. There is no one size fits all answer. Try some of the independant thought you were advocating. Obi, I was bullied growing up. By the age of 12 I had worked out more than you have. Not all bullying is the drama it\'s made out to be. People have been bullied for thousands of years, it\'s an integral part of human society. It can even be character building. (I shall still kick my kids arses if I catch them bullying though, I am not making light of it) I have a great relationship with my boys- that\'s the problem its only for 6 days out of 30 ... She won\'t \'allow\' any more.. Quality over quantity. I see SS about the same. It\'s not the end of the world....unless you want it to be.

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

thank you for that post bfs... really... good and clean... you are right on most points- except the care the old bill shows- i was until i told them to shove it - dealing with 3 x the national average of offenders - i just couldnt cope- i tried... and failed... now i have opted to go back into uniform - less stress - more money- better hours- nicer people to work with... contrary to opition- i do try to sort my own life out... you may be surprised to know that i have used those very arguments against the police myself... and not to long ago... on a training course they gave us a stress input... i said that whilst i accepted completely that the job could be stressful in ways most people never experience- its not all stress and there are stressier moments... when asked to back that up i told them this: i get to sainsburys with the boys (much younger) and could find a parent/kiddy spot- full of cars WITHOUT CHILD SEATS!!!- so manhandle them to a double trolley- no... no1 wants to walk- then he gives up walking- so back in the trolley- half way around i notice there\'s a lot more stuff in the trolley - he is loading it too- so remove the chilli etc- then at the checkout one has crapped himself- big smell- ahh... no changing bag- its in the car parked 50-miles away... so to the baby change toilet with intention of using the vending machine- nope- empty- a mum gave me a nappy- nice lady- lovely eyes... err anyway... back to the trolley and - i realise i have come out without my money... and now both kids are hungry so they are screaming the place down... i thought that was more stressful than being attacked by a chap with a large dog that i ended up having to knock senseless... so you are right... not sure i agree about the quality thing... but hey... close enough...

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

as to the frequency of the jobs- people die all the time... yes - most officers feel this pressure... and i did deal with them every day- that was my job... sex offenders/// bullying? we have to agree to disagree on that one... ;-)

BFS

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

I\'m not sure what your point is about the stress argument? What has it to do with your training or stress at work? Why get uptight about parent spaces? Why leave the nappy bag in the car? If the kids are hungry, feed them bananas or grapes, you were in a supermarket man. Show some initiative. (I\'m being flippant Obi, smile!) I may not be right about the quality thing, and I took a lot of convincing to get there. I\'m finding it works though. It makes things much more simpler too. It works for me and SS more often than not. People die all the time? So you pass this info on daily? You still appear to be lumping all the suspects in your work as equally evil under the banner \"sex offender\". It\'s a wide and varied term, and you are using one particular connotation of it (one I would equate to the from page of The Sun for example), to suggest that you are sealing with organised peodophile rings every day. Perhaps you do? I\'d have thought there would be an element of it dealing with the less serious (albeit equally wrong), element of cowardly little men sitting behind their PC\'s looking at pics of kids? Surely those two extremes can\'t be equally stressing? Perhaps it\'s me? I don\'t often get stressed by shocking footage of photos or video? Maybe I miss the point. Maybe that\'s why you\'ve not acknowledged it fully, or discussed it? We could always agree to disagree, or you could try and open my eyes to what I am missing?

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

spot on they are not all evil- but all have risk factors and generally high risk taking personalities - even the old man bwhind the PC knows their lives are going to change massively for the worse when they are caught... Couldn\'t give them anything - no money remember ? I get shocked by images of 45 year old men anally raping 8 year old... Cant help it... I dont deal with them at all now but when I did they always present a risk to me too - most try to find an in into your head... Sublte and incideous- clever and maniplulative ...

BFS

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

That\'s the comments I mean Obi. (45 year old man bit) You focus and draw all the attention onto the most shocking elements of your job. I don\'t understand why, and I think that it serves to support our view of poor little you. It seems like you are trying to glorify what you do. I\'d have thought one would become used to it in their professional life, similar to how firemen get used to burns and mutilation, nurses get used to blood and gore etc? Almost desensitised for want of another term?

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

spot on they are not all evil- but all have risk factors and generally high risk taking personalities - even the old man bwhind the PC knows their lives are going to change massively for the worse when they are caught... Couldn\'t give them anything - no money remember ? I get shocked by images of 45 year old men anally raping 8 year old... Cant help it... I dont deal with them at all now but when I did they always present a risk to me too - most try to find an in into your head... Sublte and incideous- clever and maniplulative ...

obiwan_kenobi_again

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:21:51

the day you get used to it- is the day to leave the job... because it means you are de-sensitised- and that is NOT good for you... to be able to ignore what most people say is \'evil\' etc... i try to stay away from such labels... moral judgements about offenders are not my thing... I think it may help you to actually speak to to some nurses/fire fighters- i dont think you do get used to it- you find a way of dealing with it- not the same thing... no offence- but most of the images/movies i got to see were of older men raping young girls- or young girls in sexual sits- most other things are legal -yes? i am not intending to glorify what i do - i have only ever mentioned a very distilled case study on this site- the really nasty stuff i have not (and wont) mention... those images are really the lower end of what i dealt with- really... i think most people react a little like you- \'yeah obi on his crusade again-poor old obi\' but if you had seen what i have you may think differently... its not glory- its just how it is...

Lishacool

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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:55:58

 Hey guys I'm sorry about this but i have to do this to express how i feel right now.  My husband seek for divorce with no reasons for almost 4 years and i tried all i could to have him back cos i really love him so much but all my effort didn't work out, we met at our early age in college and we both have feelings for each other and we got married happily for 5 years with no kid and he woke up one morning and he told me he’s going on a divorce, i thought it was a joke and when he came back from work he tender to me a divorce letter and he packed all his belonging from my house and left. i was devastated and i tried all i could to have him back but all did not work. I was lonely for almost 4 years, So i contacted a man who says he is a spell caster and i told the spell caster what happened he said he will help me and he asked for his full name and his picture. I gave him that. At first i was skeptical but i gave it a try cos i have tried so many spell casters and there is no solution, so when he finished with the readings, he got back to me that he’s with a woman and that woman is the reason why he left me, The spell caster said he will help me with a spell that will surely bring him back, but i never believe all this he told me i will see a positive result within 3 days. 3 days later, he called me himself and came to me apologizing and he told me he will come back home. I can't believe this, it was like a dream cos i never believe this will work out after trying many spell casters and there is no solution. The spell caster is so powerful and after that he helped me with a pregnancy spell and i got pregnant a month later, we are now happy been together again and with lovely kid. This spell caster has really changed my life and i will forever thankful to him, he has helped many of my friends too with similar problem and they are happy and thankful to him. This man is indeed the most powerful spell caster i have ever experienced in life. Am Posting this to the Forum in case there is anyone who has similar problem and still looking for a way out. you can reach him here: website http://marvelspelltemple.webs.com/   EMAIL: marvelspelltemple@gmail.com  or on +2348071660388

Lishacool

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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 10:00:18

 Hey guys I'm sorry about this but i have to do this to express how i feel right now.  My husband seek for divorce with no reasons for almost 4 years and i tried all i could to have him back cos i really love him so much but all my effort didn't work out, we met at our early age in college and we both have feelings for each other and we got married happily for 5 years with no kid and he woke up one morning and he told me he’s going on a divorce, i thought it was a joke and when he came back from work he tender to me a divorce letter and he packed all his belonging from my house and left. i was devastated and i tried all i could to have him back but all did not work. I was lonely for almost 4 years, So i contacted a man who says he is a spell caster and i told the spell caster what happened he said he will help me and he asked for his full name and his picture. I gave him that. At first i was skeptical but i gave it a try cos i have tried so many spell casters and there is no solution, so when he finished with the readings, he got back to me that he’s with a woman and that woman is the reason why he left me, The spell caster said he will help me with a spell that will surely bring him back, but i never believe all this he told me i will see a positive result within 3 days. 3 days later, he called me himself and came to me apologizing and he told me he will come back home. I can't believe this, it was like a dream cos i never believe this will work out after trying many spell casters and there is no solution. The spell caster is so powerful and after that he helped me with a pregnancy spell and i got pregnant a month later, we are now happy been together again and with lovely kid. This spell caster has really changed my life and i will forever thankful to him, he has helped many of my friends too with similar problem and they are happy and thankful to him. This man is indeed the most powerful spell caster i have ever experienced in life. Am Posting this to the Forum in case there is anyone who has similar problem and still looking for a way out. you can reach him here: website http://marvelspelltemple.webs.com/   EMAIL: marvelspelltemple@gmail.com  or on +2348071660388

tomman

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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 11:53:26

extremly interesting :) 

____
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Posted: Saturday, August 5, 2017 - 15:50:00

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Posted: Friday, August 25, 2017 - 07:55:42

Fascinating topic. Thanks
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