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Who Threw That?!!!

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Subject: How Not to Win Sympathy Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:04

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1045177/Fathers-4-Justice-protester-causes-10-mile-traffic-jam-scales-M25-gantry.html Having seen it first-hand, I\'ve every sympathy for anyone alienated from their children, but this idiot\'s prank makes my blood boil. It\'s all about him, him, him! Unless she\'s a very unusual eight-year-old, his daughter\'s going to be mortified when she learns about this. Let\'s just hope there aren\'t too many bullies at her school.

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sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Oh... the ego of another alpha male (don\'t blame me I didn\'t say it!) See; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNjlLCKU_M&eur

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\" It\'s all about him, him, him! \" Is it? Or is it simply one person representing the felings of many thousands of parents and children that are denied a relationship because of the other obstructive parent? Perhaps, if the courts could be bothered to enforced their orders there would be no need for this sort of protest.

Captain Oates

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:31:47

I agree with RoS. Sadly this is the last resort of someone badly let down by a failing system.

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

i have always found that fathers tend to become emotionally damaged by going through the court system. Although there is no simple solution to contact, to the average bloke having his feelings and love for his child trashed by people who don\'t know him, I don\'t think its surprising that they resort to something that they feel might have an effect. Unfortunately, I think the only effect he will produce is less chance of seeing his daughter. Even me, being fully aware and experienced in what he is going through, when I heard him on the radio say, \'I haven\'t been able to see my daughter for a year\', my first thought was, \'I am not surprised if thats what you are like\' I think pissing off thousands of people who don\'t care about him or his daughter, but do care about getting to the airport, work or home on time, is not the best approach. Unfortunately i don\'t know what the best approach is.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Every sympathy for parents who are denied contact but rightly or wrongly the bottom line is we all need to concentrate on what can be done, work within the system and not invent one we wish existed. At least the father who made the video has cottoned on that things are different since F4J heyday. \"The time has come for a suspension of dare devil tactics. The point has been made. A consensus for change is widely accepted. Quite frankly FFJ tactics are damaging that consensus. It is about the children not the ego of a load of alpha males. From a father whose children have suffered as any by the system we all accept needs to change.\"

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

But what is the solution when working within the system produces no results? Give up or protest on a motorway gantry I guess!

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You could also say that working within a flawed system will only produce flawed results!

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

From the flawed system to either not seeing your child for years, if ever again, to being arrested, getting a criminal record and being a hate figure for thousands of the general public, who will all cheer when the court sends you to prison for blocking the motorway. (I am not sure of the crime actually, but I bet the Anti-terrorism legislation is used somewhere) Probably the best option is to follow the system and make the best of it. One thing that I have learned, is that not all dads are decent loving parents who want to see their child out of love. A flawed result is better than no result or prison.

tilly31

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:32:33

I would happily tie my ex to the motorway gantry for NOT wanting to see his children. No law or justice to help my children who are on the other side of the obstructive parent coin. Simes ;) glad you doing well.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

\"One thing that I have learned, is that not all dads are decent loving parents who want to see their child out of love.\" No doubt Simes, but equally not all mums are decent loving parents who prevent contact out of love. I know, a bit of an obvious one but thought I would get that one in before the usuals start jumping up and down....

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

Ah Stuart, but the discussion is about fathers. If I was including everything that wasn\'t decent I would have mentioned Tony Blair, the Russians, George Bush, cold spaghetti, Wales and treading in dogs muck with bare feet. And as you say, some mothers.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

simes- public order act, mental health act, behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace... loads... i have a certain sympathy for those who cannot find a way to see thier kids- and i think that being able to protest in a non-violent way -even if it causes disruption to 000\'s is one of the things i love this country for... the only problem is the english as a whole, react very badly to coertion in any form... did yuo hear harriot harmon? lying her head off! anyway... i still think when ffj reach for a weapon its usually a boomerang...

Who Threw That?!!!

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:04

\"i still think when ffj reach for a weapon its usually a boomerang...\" Yep, FFJ really needs to spend some money on a good PR consultant because alienating Joe Public with stunts like this is a truly stupid idea - and that applies to any group fighting for justice, not just FFJ.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

its a shame... because the cause is a just one... i still think politicians wont do anything because - there is no political milage in it... now if it was some minority group... we might see a different reaction ... do you think that womans issues are still seen as ones with more milage in them than mens? or is it that the gov just hink its on the \'too difficult\' pile? i had to smile about \'its about him him him etc...\' was Pankurst throwing herself under the famous horse - \'her her her?\' mind you he didnt kill himself...

Who Threw That?!!!

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:04

\"do you think that womans issues are still seen as ones with more milage in them than mens?\" No I don\'t, but being really sexist here, I think women are in the lead when it comes to emotional intelligence and empathy. In private, they might be the wife from Hell, but their public persona will be entirely different and calculated to extract as much sympathy for their cause as humanly possible. Pankhurst was a prime example of this - a woman fighting for her cause and managing in the process to gain a lot of public support, albeit mainly from other women and a few enlightened men. All pretty noble stuff and all that...I doubt anyone would describe today\'s antics by m\'laddo as noble. Egocentric maybe... :-)

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Perhaps that is another lesson men\'s /fathers\' groups can learn from feminists. It wasn\'t protest that eventually secured *some* women the vote, it was supporting the Government. Pankhurst put aside attempts to gain women the vote and threw all her energies into urging women to take over men\'s jobs so the men could go and fight World War I. Gratitude for the women\'s work persuaded Asquith and much of the population that a minority of women should be granted the vote. \"do you think that womans issues are still seen as ones with more milage in them than mens?\" IMHO it is time to abandon men\'s and women\'s issues in favour of gender egalitarism.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sidw- i could not agree with you more... really... unfortunately- there are a lot of people that are stuck in the past... stuck in the \'men do the work- women do the child care... when divorced- men leave thier home and women look after the kids\' until we truly allow ourselves to move forward from our predjudices- we will be on sites like this- and people will be dressing up as Batman...

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

Oscar Bravo, see, what would we do without you. Although I did criminal law, and Police Powers with PACE and stuff, and unravelled a very interesting essay question on the police trespassing and finding a suspect hiding under the bed, arresting him, searching his partners locker at work and seizing CD\'s that they suspected were stolen, we didn\'t cover what to do if Batman lands on the M25. I bet what really pissed the authorities off was that nobody was caught in a speed camera on that part of the road for most of today. Ha ha, let the government suffer a lack of money like the rest of us! Where I said that European Law was most interesting, one of the main cases was about a consignment of blow up dolls held up at customs for inspection. And a banana importer using bullying tactics to beat the competition. Dead exciting. Stidsy, I hang on every word you type, and then you confuse me with words like egalitarism. I think I had a dose of that on holiday in Greece. L&H

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

The BBC reported the police made the decision to allow Batman to stay on the gantry all day. What other option was there other than knock him off his perch?

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Organisations like the Fatherhood Institute do much more work and getter better results than F4J - we\'ve certainly worked with them in my local area. The way F4J and similar groups operate just re-inforces the suspicion that a proportion of their membership is seeking to use the agenda as a way of getting at/controlling their ex wives. Nobody with any real say in making changes - legislators, senior policy makers for example - will touch them with a bargepole.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Nobody with any real say in making changes - legislators, senior policy makers for example - will touch them with a bargepole.\" Then perhaps the legislators and policy makers need to be changed. F4J exists solely because the existing system doesnt work, and fathers are being unjustly excluded from their childrens lives by spiteful and vindictive mothers. Obstruction of a childs relationsip with the other parent is child abuse.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

ray, there are other organisations (who don\'t have the profile of F4J) who do a much better, more constructive job of highlighting and progressing fathers\' issues where it matters than F4J. That was my point.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Not from where I am standing they dont noidea! Go out in the street and ask people if they have ever heard of Families Need Fathers, Equal Parenting Council and The Fatherhood Institute (I have never head of that one!) and its unlikely they will have. Bet, most will have heard of F4J though. People may ridicule the actions of F4J but they have made more people aware of the plight of fathers being obstyructed than all the other put together in my opinion. I got on the local radio once when F4J started their antics in superhearo costumes. The presenter was ridiculing the guy up a London crane. I said to her then, that I never realised there was so little injustice regarding maintaining a relationship with my son against a hostile mother, and that statement is as true now as it was then for most fathers suffering this for the first time. I have every sympathy and indeed admiration for the guy on the motorway gantry. It wont get him to see his daughter, but hopefully one day she might learn about it and be emensely proud that her dad was prepared to decare to the whole country that he loved her and was angry her mother obstructed contact and the law did little or nothing to prohibit her from doing so. I really believe that before any resident parent criticises the likes of this guy and F4J for that matter, they they should first experience what it is like to have your child taken from you and then denied any contact or information about them by the other parent. You can only sympathise noidea, you cannot empathise.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

that should be \'so little justice regarding maintaining a relationship with my son against a hostile mother until I was the receipient of it\'

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

It\'s one thing making people aware of the issue - and I\'d agree with you that F4J do that - but it\'s quite another thing to successfully negotiate changes with the key organisations and agencies involved. F4J are frankly rubbish at that and actually alienate the very people they should be influencing - they give a picture of NRP dads that is positively harmful to their cause.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

simes- lol... you are SOOO right... much more to Policing than law... speedcameras... here\'s a radical idea now simes to stop you getting a ticket.... ready? promise you wont say anything? look at the speed sign- and... stay under it... i still have sympathy for bat man- and... with the amount of divorced dads in my job... so have a fair few of my mates... ;-)

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Granted F4J highlighted a point when no one understood what they were really about but things have moved on. \"Then perhaps the legislators and policy makers need to be changed.\" How do you achieve that when there is no concrete evidence of electoral support for F4J? Matt O\'Connor secured less than 3% of the vote in the election for London mayor, in one English council someone secured 14 votes standing on the equal parenting platform and in the Scottish parliamentary election there were a total of about 200 votes. \"F4J exists solely because the existing system doesn\'t work, and fathers are being unjustly excluded from their childrens lives by spiteful and vindictive mothers.\" The Fathers\' rights movement or Parents\' rights movement is part of the men\'s movement that emerged in the 1970s which exists as a backlash to feminism. Focusing on rights does a great disservice to separating fathers because it ratchets up anger and does nothing to help them deal with the negative effects of the separation or build ongoing family relationships. The Fathers Institute was known as Fathers Direct and Dad Info is an associated company. See; http://www.fatherhoodinstitute.org/ http://www.dad.info/inside-dad/about-us

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Fathers Direct and Dad Info \" Never heard of them either, and I bet I am not alone. \"Focusing on rights does a great disservice to separating fathers because it ratchets up anger and does nothing to help them deal with the negative effects of the separation or build ongoing family relationships.\" How do they do that when one parent is adament that the other parent will be excluded from their childs life? Only fundamental rights and enforced laws can solve the problem. When are these child abusing parents going to be brought to task? At the moment everyone just \'tut tuts\' it and looks the other way. No one in authority seems to be taking any action against them whatsoever.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

We don\'t have systems based on parents rights in private law, public law, children\'s social care - to name but a few structures. We have systems based on the welfare of the child. Enforced laws such as imprisoning a resident parent or financial penalties can harm the child, hence the reluctance to go down that route. We should have a range of early measures to encourage and support parents to keep contact going despite relationship breakdown between the adults (when it\'s safe to do so). We\'re very behind in providing that kind of support in this country.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"We have systems based on the welfare of the child.\" Really? Could have fooled me. Why hasnt this guy up the gantry seen his daughter for a year? The current system doesnt work. It does not use the welfare of the child as the overriding factor because if it did courts would enforce their orders. Or are you saying that not to penalise the resident parent who obstructs contact overides the benefits to a child of a relationship with the non-resident parent?

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'Why hasnt this guy up the gantry seen his daughter for a year?\' Could be any number of reasons. Do you know why? \'Or are you saying that not to penalise the resident parent who obstructs contact overides the benefits to a child of a relationship with the non-resident parent?\' Depends on individual situations and how the proposed penalty may impact on the child.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

that\'s why the USA has it right... if you deny contact there- you get one chance... then off to prison for you... they - quite rightly IMHO- take the line \'its not the states fault you are sep from your kids because of being in jail- you have chosen this course of action and now you face the consequences\'... that is more like it- instead of \'now dont be a naughty mummy...\' i really believe that parents that obstruct contact should be dealt with like they do in the Sates... i suspect if a few were punished and judges told them they had to behave or go to prison - we would have far less issues like rays...

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

If a resident parent doesnt pay thier council tax they may be imprisoned. If a resident parent doesnt pay their TV licence they will be fined. If a resident parent gets caught speeding they will be fined. If a resident parent gets caught parking illegally, they will be fined. Need I go on? If a non-resident parent doesnt pay their CSA child maintenance they can, and some are, imprisoned, even if they have other children that live with them?

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Do you know why?\" Erm, the child abusing mother denies it perhaps? There are lots of them about you know noidea lol

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Exactly obi, at the moment compliance with a court order is voluntary. They know that nothing will happen to them if they refuse.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

You\'re comparing apples and oranges ray - council tax etc aren\'t systems that are based on the welfare of the child and don\'t have to take that into account in the way that family law does. How many nrps live on their own with other children and have been imprisoned because of CM defaults? Very very few I should imagine.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"You\'re comparing apples and oranges ray - council tax etc aren\'t systems that are based on the welfare of the child and don\'t have to take that into account in the way that family law does.\" No. The law is the law, or at least it should be. \"How many nrps live on their own with other children and have been imprisoned because of CM defaults? Very very few I should imagine.\" I never said that they lived on their own. Fathers of second families have been imprisoned as a result of CSA action. Its still denying children their father and potentially his income is it not?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Its not really apples with oranges is it? As Ray says, the law is the law. If mum denies contact because she \"feels like it\" then pretty well nothing will happen to her because its not in the best interests of the child to punish mum. Sure, the DJ will give mum a telling off and mum will promise not be naughty again but she knows that she can and will get away with it again and again and again and again!!!! However, if mum is caught shoplifting then sure she will get away with a 1st offence but what about a 2nd or 3rd or 4th??? No of course not, fines will be handed down and pretty soon a custodial sentence. I too agree with the idea that it should be a one warning only system. Screw contact up again then its porridge time AND residency of the child should seriously be questioned.....

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'I never said that they lived on their own. Fathers of second families have been imprisoned as a result of CSA action. Its still denying children their father and potentially his income is it not?\' Fair point. At least in that case the children have one familiar parent they are to be left with. One of the problems with protracted contact denial cases is that the child may have no bond or relationship with the nrp, and a close bond with the rp so to jail the rp would not be in the child\'s interest. You may say that if CAFCASS/the courts speeded up then this would be less likely, and I would agree to an extent. Cases do hang about for far too long. But you still have to strike a balance between thoroughly investigating child protection allegations, for example, which do take some time, and resolving contact denial as quickly as possible. It needs to be higher up the scale in terms of being recognised as emotionally harmful to deny contact. Even where contact denial is going on the best outcome for children would to work with the rp to understand why it\'s wrong and to change (if it\'s safe) rather than send a parent off to jail, but I don\'t think sufficient resources are committed to do this properly.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You could also argue that where a court order for contact is made (often after the involvement of cafcass) the court has already decided that that is in the best interests of the child. Why then, when the resident parent refused to comply with that order, is it then deemed that not enforcing the original order is a greater piority in the wellfare of the child? Could it be the bias of the court system in that the enforcment action would be against a mother, wheras the enforcement action of the CSA is against the father?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

I meant to add, few people have sympathy for the bloke on the M25. Its pretty obvious that we live in an apathetic society when it comes to such matters. The government do little if nothing to improve the plight of such people. There are pretty robust laws in place for dealing with people who ignore court orders. Its called contempt of court and a jail sentence can be given. HOWEVER, instead of the government telling the courts to get their thumbs from their arses and do something about the situation they do much hand wringing and tutting etc,etc. Joe public cares not a jot about batman at Buck house or on the M25. Unless it actually happens to Joe Public only then does he show an interest. Its all a load of crap.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Joe public cares not a jot about batman at Buck house or on the M25. Unless it actually happens to Joe Public only then does he show an interest.\" Quite, and I regret to say I fall into that category too.

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Noidea, the idea that contact is being denied for a good reason is always the stock answer given when talking about fathers dressed as batman. However, how many cases are there where contact is being denied simply because mum hates dad? In cases where no allegations of abuse have been made but mum just refuses to allow junior to have a relationship with Dad? (Rays situation springs to mind) Like I said previously, the law is not upheld in these cases. Mum can abuse and ignore a court order with impunity as she knows that she will not be given a meaningful punishment.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Hey, I have allegations a plenty by both mothers I\'ll have you know lol

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Ray, dare say that had I been trying to catch a flight the other day and been delayed then I too would have been fuming at this chap. I had to obtain a court order to get good, regular contact to my lad. That was 5 yrs ago and luckily I get very, very good contact now. But this is largely due to several factors being, my sons age now (a 10 yr old will give his mother hell if he isnt allowed to see or speak to me when he wants - my ex has a natural aversion to being told off. She cried her eyes out at the last hearing when the DJ told her to \"grow up\" and finally she has married a chap who is a decent guy and has somehow made her wake up to the best interests of my son.) However, what would I have been willing to do if my ex had turned out to be a person who totally ignores her son in favour of soothing her own appetite for hurt? I doubt I would have dressed up as batman and gone climbing (I dont have the legs for the suit nor am I good on heights!) but I like to think that I care enough to do something. So, I do have sympathy for any person (I include mums as well as dads as no doubt there must be a handful of cases in the UK where mum isnt the PWC and is denied contact) who is not able to see their child.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'Could it be the bias of the court system in that the enforcment action would be against a mother, wheras the enforcement action of the CSA is against the father?\' I think it\'s more likely that the contact enforcement is seen as being in the private arena, ie a family issue. Non-payment of CM impacts on society as it contributes to child poverty, the taxpayer and so on. So, no, not a gender issue particularly.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Non-payment of CM impacts on society as it contributes to child poverty\" Utter rubbish.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

The reduction of child poverty was one the four guiding principles behind reform of the CM system. \'Child maintenance currently helps to lift 100,000 children out of poverty, and some of these children may, in the absence of a framework to ensure that they receive these payments, then fall back below the poverty threshold.\' http://www.dwp.gov.uk/childmaintenance/csa_ria.pdf

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You can fool some of the people all of the time etc .....

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

I have to say that the subject of child poverty is a bit misleading... Define child poverty.....in Africa its about getting enough food in your tummy but in the UK? Probably the difference between a PS2 and a PS3.....

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

noidea- cm and contact are different issues... i agree that they should not be used to influence the other... mind you... its often the case that the contact is used by the RP to influence the NRP... lets face it... its the bad parents in both camps that need sorting- the problem is- the frustrating problem- is there is a powerful system to control NRPs that dont pay up (its not perfect...and there are loop holes...) but not much to control RP\'s that play silly buggers with the contact... thats the thing that grates...

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

obi, CM and contact are most definately linked, and will always be so while the CSA utilises the basis it does. They reward and obstructive parent with more CM!

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

\"How do they do that when one parent is adament that the other parent will be excluded from their childs life?\" It\'s bad enough one parent denying contact without inciting victimhood, anger, blame, and destructive strategies of litigation in the other parent. Intractable cases aren\'t just the result of the behaviour of mothers and very often both parents and even the children can be implicated in the problem. \"One example is the unreasonable mother who is implacably opposed to contact and without any good reason, wants to cut the father out of her and the child\'s future life. An even more difficult situation is the child who, either influenced by the mother or by his own viewpoint or a combination of both, refuses to see the father. The third situation which may be combined with the first two situations or may arise entirely separately is the father who believes that he is \'perfect\', that the mother is to blame for everything and the child is prevented from a natural, loving relationship with him solely by the intransigence of the mother. In such a case the father may believe that an order by the court for unrestricted contact would have the result of a happy resumption of a loving relationship between him and the child. Such a father is able to see the beam in the eye of the mother but is wholly unable to see that there is a beam in his eye also and that his conduct has not been perfect. He may well have been responsible for unfortunate scenes with the mother in the presence of the child, from inappropriate behaviour under increasing frustration, and that behaviour has added more fuel to the flames of opposition by the mother and often by the child to contact. If the father becomes unreasonable there is a risk for him that his behaviour may become so unacceptable that he may, himself, make it impossible for contact to be resumed..\" (Re S (Contact....) is [2004] EWCA Civ 18, [2004] 1 FLR 1279) Going to court rarely leads to good outcomes and professional support services that encourage parents to understand where each other is coming from, gives them strategies for reducing or avoiding conflict and help with formulating agreements is far more productive. Being flexible and not getting bogged down with principles helps too.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sidw- that is a crock... are you suggesting i should have not bothered?

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

stidw, I seriously doubt any father makes an application to court as a first resort. Your very long paragraph, while very interesting, didnt actually answer my question at all.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'Going to court rarely leads to good outcomes and professional support services that encourage parents to understand where each other is coming from, gives them strategies for reducing or avoiding conflict and help with formulating agreements is far more productive. Being flexible and not getting bogged down with principles helps too\' Thank you stidw, precisely so.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Support and encouragement is all fine and dandy, but you cannot reason with the unreasonable. How about someone comes up with an alternative solution for an implacably hostile resident parent then, because you can bet your life they will not be inteterested in \'support and encouragement\'. They are not interested in being flexible, they are not interested in principles. All they are interested in is hurting the other parent as much as possible and using the child as the weapon to do so.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'They are not interested in being flexible, they are not interested in principles. All they are interested in is hurting the other parent as much as possible and using the child as the weapon to do so.\' In which case prison wouldn\'t work either, unless you propose a life sentence. Referral to psychological/psychiatric assessment and treatment, community orders taking place during contact time.

Kat007

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:29:05

Having read through most of this thread but not seeing this man on the gantry or any news related to this event. Can I say that all of you have been very constructive and have put forward some really good ides to solving the problem of contact with NRP\'S. I think the best one so far has been that if a PWC stops an NRP from seeing their children (unless nrp a danger to the children of course) then the and I hate saying this the American option I feel would soon put a stop to the battle over our poor kids. They are the main focus here and it did take two people to make them and bring them to this world. It is not their fault parent s seperate and it seems they are the one\'s who are hurt by being used as weapons. The only flaw here however is that the PWC stopping contact would then only get visits in jail. So maybe if we used a 3 strikes and your out policy then I would hope that this would deter PWC\'S from even contemplating withholding contact with the NRP. I am sure if we actually asked the kids what they wanted rather than assume we know best all the time they would decide to see both parents equally. Understand this is not always possible but they have two parents not one. I hope this hasn\'t offened any PWC\'S who are actually fighting to get NRP\'S to see their kids as that was not the intention.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

The thing is Kat, in the US many professionals are saying joint custody has caused a big increase in the amount of litigation and intractable cases so more children are suffering emotional harm despite prison sentences. What has been found to be more effective is emotional support through parenting classes and in some parts of the States, ‘parenting coordinators’ support separated parents in resolving disputes that affect their children. Separation classes facilitated by relationship counsellors, mediators, family lawyers and parenting professionals aren\'t just for the majority of people who never go near a family court they also help warring parents understand where each other is coming from, and give them those strategies for reducing or avoiding conflict. The UK, particularly England, doesn\'t have a culture which encourages separating parents to address their emotional needs and those of their children by accessing relationship support services. In E&W Under the Children and Adoption Act 2006 which is to be implemented courts will have new powers to order parents to attend programmes, classes and counselling or guidance with regard to establishing, maintaining or improving contact or to address violent behaviour. This is to be backed up with monitoring compliance and enforcement through imposing unpaid work.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"In E&W Under the Children and Adoption Act 2006 which is to be implemented courts will have new powers to order parents to attend programmes, classes and counselling or guidance with regard to establishing, maintaining or improving contact or to address violent behaviour. This is to be backed up with monitoring compliance and enforcement through imposing unpaid work.\" Well at least that is a step in the right direnction. But, what will the courts do if the mother attends all the classes and counselling, so no punishment, but still obstructs contact?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

\"In which case prison wouldn\'t work either, unless you propose a life sentence.\" Not at all but a few weeks inside with the realisation that they could end up there again and again or indeed that perhaps residency has been taken away and the PWC becomes the NRP would, IMO have the desired effect. Trouble is society spends too much time and money in soft soaping pond life people where really they should be sorted out properly.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Community orders ray, ie \'imposing unpaid work\' as stidw says. These sort of civil sanctions add a useful layer before contempt of court charges because the proof is based on the balance of probabilities. The problem with contempt charges is that the burden of proof necessarily is greater, therefore adds a lot of time to the process.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Yes I can read noidea. The sanctions appear to only be imposed for failure to attend the classes/guidance and not for contact obstruction wich could easily continue regardless. You constantly fail to appreciate how nasty a child abusinr mothers mind works.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Okay, read that piece of legislation. Penalties are potentially applicable to both failure to attend classes/guidance, failure to facilitate contact and if I read it right failure to take up contact once ordered. Looks good on face value, but it will really depend on the implimentation by judges. There is a lot of discretion there about the effected on the person receiving the punishment, and I am sure that will also be interpreted by judges as the effects on the child. If they continue to take their stance, I dont see this new legislation having much effect. Even if monitoring of contact occurs, it is disappointing that it is still up to the agrieved party to make a further application to court for enforcement and that isnt done automatically by the court. There is however, at least now a facility to claim the costs in doing so, but again will the judges to that to a mother that claims to be penniless? Still, as I said before, at least a step in the right direction. Thanks stidw for bringing that to our attention.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

The positive intervention ie the classes/guidance could run alongside the punitive measure quite easily.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

stidw, do you know if that is law yet please, or if not when it will be?

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Oh great, usual government apathy! Royal Assent in June 2006 \"Kevin Brennan (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Children, Schools and Families; Cardiff West, Labour) | Hansard source My right hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Ministry of Justice, Bridget Prentice and I wish to make the following statement to the House about the implementation of Part 1 of the Children and Adoption Act 2006: The provisions relating to Family Assistance Orders and risk assessments were implemented in October 2007. We plan to implement the remaining provisions in Part 1 of the Act (sections 1 to 5 and 8) relating to new powers for the courts to order \'contact activities\' and new enforcement powers in the autumn of 2008. Some provisions in Part 2 of the Act, relating to adoptions with a foreign element, are already in force. I announced the timetable for the implementation of the provisions in Part 2 relating to the restriction of adoptions from abroad in my statement to the House of 2 April. We are working to a longer timetable for the implementation of section 13 and will announce this in due course.\"

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

The consultation on draft changes to Family Proceedings Rules ended in June. The CA1989 has been amended so it is all going ahead albeit not very quickly.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

The Act only appears to allow judges to order classes/guidance or community service as an encouragement to facilitate contact. I appreciate that the classes/guideance is a new one, but surely community service is already available to a judge for failure to comply with a court order, but they chose not to utilise it. Maybe, hopefully, now that stipulated punishment is enshrined in an Act they will more readily administer it. You can just see mothers saying to their children though \"Sorry we cant have fun this weekend, your daddy is making me clean up CO\'s piss from the streets, and besides we have no money as I have had to give your daddy it\". Just kidding by the way CO lol.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

The more I think about it, all the Government has done really is change the oil when we desperately needed a new engine!

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol... the attitude of some pwc\'s makes me laugh... they are like millionaires sitting in a million quid estate saying \'well a 2% interest rate rise is bad - but if you cant afford to buy a house- you should rent- its not that bad is it? rental is better than being on the street...\' simple- plain- pwc\'s that withold contact should be dealt with the same way any person would if they committed an act of mental cruelty to a child... advise- warning- punishment. they wont ever be- because the majority of pwc\'s are women - and there is no political milage in upsetting women. thats it... in a nutshell- we can dance around the fire all day... but that\'s the problem.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Denying contact is contempt of court when a contact order is in place and NOT cruelty or abuse. Emotional abuse is when someone tries to make the child feel bad. This can be saying things to scare them, put the child down, embarrass or humiliate them. This might be on purpose or without the perpetrator realising what they are saying or doing is making the child feel bad. If someone is always telling you that you\'re ugly, or fat, or stupid, or worthless, or that they wish you\'d never been born, that\'s emotional abuse. The major factors relating to children\'s poor emotional outcomes after their parent\'s divorce are high conflict, poverty and multiple transitions in family structure and not the absence of a parent per se.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

they wont ever be- because the majority of pwc\'s are women - and there is no \'political milage in upsetting women.\' Don\'t really deal in complexity, do you obi? Feel free - you and ray just remind me of how wary to be about men around divorce and contact issues. Very salutary. I should imagine judges and legislators hear a lot of this rubbish as well - and you wonder why you don\'t get the changes in the system you want. Try reasoned argument, works for most people you know.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Feel free - you and ray just remind me of how wary to be about men around divorce and contact issues.\" That is because you havent the slightest first hand appreciation of what it is like to be denied your child by the other parent. Maybe if you did you would feel different about the current system.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

stidw. If a parent denies their child the opportunity of an education, would you say that was child abuse? If a parent denies their child the opportunity to associate with other children, would you say that was child abuse? If a parent denies their child the opportunity to play with toys, would you say that was child abuse? In my opinion child abuse can be in many forms, and the child itself does not need to feel at the time they have missed out on something, for it to be child abuse all the same. Denying a child a loving and rewarding relationship with the other parent will always be child abuse. I happen not to agree with the claim \'you dont miss what you have never had\'.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sidw- contempt of court? contempt for a child\'s future more like... so contempt- cant be abuse? you need to go away and think about it.... also- can you just tell me the longest you have been without your kids? without your permission? noidea- you remind me how spiteful and abusive women can be around divorce- and how the first weapon they reach for is the kids- anyone that does so is beneath contempt. reasoned argument? mmm... tell you what, i will put you in touch with my ex- and you can \'argue reasonably with her\' oh and- same question to you.. the longest you have been denied access ? i suspect that you have nodea of what you are talking about. my ex goes potty when the boys are with me for a week...

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'noidea- you remind me how spiteful and abusive women can be around divorce- and how the first weapon they reach for is the kids\' My my, what a short fuse you have when provoked obi. But at least you\'re showing your true colours.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

In the context of the Children Act 1989 abuse is when someone\'s actions have caused a child to suffer significant harm to their health or development. Significant harm means: punishing a child too much hitting or shaking a child constantly criticising, threatening or rejecting a child sexually interfering with or assaulting a child not looking after a child - not giving them enough to eat, ignoring them, not playing or talking with them or not making sure that they are safe. Evidence of emotionally abuse examples: be slow to learn to walk and talk be very passive and unable to be spontaneous have feeding problems and grow slowly find it hard to develop close relationships be over-friendly with strangers get on badly with other children of the same age be unable to play imaginatively think badly of themselves be easily distracted and do badly at school. http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinformation/mentalhealthandgrowingup/19childabuseandneglect.aspx

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"constantly criticising, threatening or rejecting a child\" How interesting. So according to the Act a father who by his own actions denies his child a relationship with him is guilty of child abuse, but a mother who denies a child a relationship with a willing father is not. Yep, that sound fair!

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

noidea, you basically said the same thing to obi and I, does that mean you are showing your true colours too?

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

\"So according to the Act a father who by his own actions denies his child a relationship with him is guilty of child abuse, but a mother who denies a child a relationship with a willing father is not.\" Of course not. A father (or mother for that matter) who denies his child a relationship with him isn\'t guilty of abuse either. In this sense \'rejecting\' means the child is refused affection. In an ideal situation there would be two parents but if one parent dies, serves in the military, walks out etc children still can receive enough affection from the other parent to thrive.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

noidea, you basically said the same thing to obi and I, does that mean you are showing your true colours too Quite right ray, I should have course have said that I\'m wary about *some* men around divorce and separation issues. However being wary hardly equates to being spiteful and abusive, which obi infers that I am. What\'s interesting is that on this thread about F4J we probably have in microcosm from a couple of posters how F4J behaves in real life. Can\'t maintain an informed discussion and look for solutions, ignores salient information because it doesn\'t fit, are apparently ignorant of the principles and complexities that lie behind their \'specialist subject\', resort to bluster and abuse when challenged. Oh and of course have to reduce everything to gender - because it\'s all women\'s fault. F4J haven\'t been directly consulted on the proposed changes in the Adoption Act re contact. No prizes for guessing why.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"What\'s interesting is that on this thread about F4J we probably have in microcosm from a couple of posters how F4J behaves in real life.\" Have you been to a meeting of F4J then? Do you know at first hand how their members behave in real life? \"F4J haven\'t been directly consulted on the proposed changes in the Adoption Act re contact. \" How do you know that? Do you have a list of those that were please?

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

I gave up reading half way down but, like Ros, I have never heard of Fathers whatever they were either. If I ever mention that I am a member of FnF, they ask if I have my Batman outfit with me. When I had my scholarship interview, with 6 very high level barrister/judges I had to go to lengths to explain that FnF is not F4J. I could not tell you a single thing that FnF has achieved in 30 years. I have attended F4J meetings, as I was a member once, and the dads there, with an exception of a few hardcore nutters, are dads, just like me, Ros and Oscar bravo, who want to see their kids. Probably never heard of FnF, but everyone, including my kids have heard of F4J. As I said before, I don\'t think they do themselves any favours, but they do have an awareness. Oscar bravo, I have never had a speeding ticket. :-) I was speaking to a Magistrate a while ago who told me a story about a woman with 6 kids who drove without tax and insurance. She needed the car to get the kids to school, and so on her 36th appearance in court she smiled at him and said \'So whatyer gonna do?\' He sent her to prison. Note, it was her 36th offence. As she was led off in horror, she was screaming \'What about my kids?\' I agree with Ros, that unless you have experienced the pain of being kept apart from your kids, you could never begin to understand the feeling.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

ray I was referring to F4J the organisation and how that organisation conducts itself. Why do you want to know who was directly consulted? The consultation is closed so either F4J responded anyway (as any individual or group could) or they didn\'t get their act together (too busy organising stunts).

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Hey, you made the unequivocal statements noidea, I just asked you to back them up. Can you or cant you, or have you just made sweeping assumptions without any basis of fact or proof whatsoever? \"I was referring to F4J the organisation and how that organisation conducts itself.\" Are you involved in the organisation of F4J too, or do you know someone that is? Or are all your judgments based on prejudice and the headlines in tabloid newspapers?

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

The evidence is in the public domain - I\'m not here to do your research for you ray. You will see if you choose to find it that FnF and the Equal Parenting Coalition were directly consulted, but not F4J. Don\'t worry unduly - F4J won\'t respond anyway to govt consultations \'in protest\' at something or other. \'are all your judgments based on prejudice and the headlines in tabloid newspapers?\' Nope: F4J press releases, F4J website, F4J \'blueprint\' for starters.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Is that really the best you can come up with noidea? Perhaps you should resist from making categorical statements of fact unless you are willing to provide the proof when challanged. Ho hum ....

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'Perhaps you should resist from making categorical statements of fact unless you are willing to provide the proof when challanged.\' but ray, you\'ve taken the view in the past when you\'ve been challenged that *your* statements don\'t require you to provide any evidence. Annoying isn\'t it?

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Struth!

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Just for the record noidea, I wasnt aware the Government specifically asked certain \'approved\' bodies to respond to formal consultation requests. Indeed to do so could, in my opinion, potentially create a disproportionate response. I was under the impression that all consultations were just open for any person or body to respond within the stipulated timescale. I\'m happy to change that opinion though if you, or anyone else for that matter, has evidence otherwise.

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

ROS, FnF now gets government funding, because they are the \'good boys\', I think something like £4Million. It keeps them quiet. FnF get consulted on policy now. A cynic would put 2 and 2 together and make 4

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Funnily enough, I have looked a FNF response to the consultation and it isn\'t a million miles off my own views lol.

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

All consultations are open to anyone and they\'re published on the web. Sometimes the directly consulted organisations are listed so that if you are affiliated to that organisation, or work for it, you know that a response is being made. One example of how a dept publishes - http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/consultations/cop.cfm?codeId=7#7 Regarding the ability of govt funded organisations to campaign and put their pov without fear or favour, that\'s enshrined in the Compact agreement between govt and the third sector. \'Recognition of the voluntary and community sector’s idependence is therefore the cornerstone of the Compact.\' http://www.thecompact.org.uk/information/100022/101508/101518/thefundingandprocurementcode/

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Can I just say that insofar as \"abuse\", well surely to deny a child the right to see the NRP for no reason other than control or hatred towards the NRP is an abuse of position and power over the child??

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Quite so Stuart, but it\'s not necessarily abuse in the Children Act sense. If it were, then we would have to accept that a non-resident parent who chooses to lose touch with their children, doesn\'t contact, or intermittently contacts, is also guilty of child abuse and should be subject to enquiries/prosecution under Section 47.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"If it were, then we would have to accept that a non-resident parent who chooses to lose touch with their children, doesn\'t contact, or intermittently contacts, is also guilty of child abuse and should be subject to enquiries/prosecution under Section 47.\" Fine by me. Denying your children a relationship with yourself is just as bad as denying them a relationship with the other parent.

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

Abuse? CAFCASS defines domestic violence as “Any behaviour, which is characterised by the misuse of power and control by one person over another within a family context and/or with whom s/he has been in an intimate relationships. This behaviour can be overt as in threatened, attempted assault or actual assault or harassment. It can also be subtle, such as the imposition of social isolation on a partner and/or her/his children. It can thus take the form of emotional, financial, physical, psychological or sexual abuse or any combination of these. Straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. (A cafcass report) Not the cafcass office who was a bit of an old nag!

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Cough, cough! I think RoS was talking about child abuse not DV. -;)

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'Denying your children a relationship with yourself is just as bad as denying them a relationship with the other parent.\' Well by your logic you\'d be up for prosecution then since you\'ve made a deliberate choice (as you\'ve said on this board) not to pursue contact with your children.

Simes 2p

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:18

Stidsy, but Stuart was talking about abuse being preventing the child from seeing the nrp. Anyway, isn\'t this all back on a roundabout treadmill type thread that leads nowhere? Back to my books!

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

I think that if you were to go out and ask Joe Public, \'Would you consider a childs denial of a loving and meaningfull relationship with a parent by the other parent child abuse?\' the majority would say yes. If you want to justify contact obstruction within percieved legal definitions, then I would suggestl it would come under \'neglect\' or \'emotional abuse\' or both.

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Well by your logic you\'d be up for prosecution then since you\'ve made a deliberate choice (as you\'ve said on this board) not to pursue contact with your children.\" If you like!

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Anyway, isn\'t this all back on a roundabout treadmill type thread that leads nowhere?\" Yeah, but as long as people arent kicking cyber lumps out of eachother or using foul language its quite theraputic lol

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

\"It isn\'t child abuse though. You could say to withdraw financial support from a child for no other reason other than control or hatred towards the PWC is an abuse of position and power over the child too.\" Yep.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

noidea- yes i can be annoyed like anyone - i am not a robotnik... as i say- its easy to be objective about contact issues when you dont have any... your comment did pique me... i think because i am sensitive about contact issues- and when people make comments suggesting/inferring that i am in someway to blame for her bad behaviour- remember i didnt leave to bed someone else- i left to survive. anyway... Ray... since noone (except owl... isnt that bizzare...) is in our situation we cant really expect them to truly understand how you feel or how painful and frustrating it is...

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"since noone (except owl... isnt that bizzare...) is in our situation we cant really expect them to truly understand how you feel or how painful and frustrating it is...\" Yes, but owl is on a higher mental plain than us mere mortals lol.

sometimesitdoesn'twork

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Posted: Thursday, December 5, 2013 - 13:03:30

Last post was a mistake. It should have been. \" Anyway, isn\'t this all back on a roundabout treadmill type thread that leads nowhere?\" Yep.

Joyce.

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:29

And Noidea is a civil servant. Be afraid. Very afraid.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

a civil serpent? not that civil...

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

mwhah ha ha ha....(evil laugh)

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Wrong, Joyce btw. Where does suggesting that another poster is a spiteful child abuser fall on your civility scale obi?

Stuart

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Can we call a halt to the hostilities people??? Lets have a group hug......

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sorry- i dont remember saying i referred to you? however, if the cap fits...

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Thanks obi, it\'s been a tough day at work but that\'s made me laugh out loud! cheers.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol- no worries... it was ment as a joke... what do you do?

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Sorry obi, I\'d be too easy to identify if I said (there\'s not many people who do the same job).

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Oh look, noidea is the head of MI5 lol Egos huh ......

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

No, ray nothing to do with \'ego\' (what a strange notion). Just the basics of using the net safely and preserving anonymity. What\'s rattled you about that?

Captain Oates

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:31:47

Re Government consultations. I followed the last Government one completely. Henshaw report and white paper resultant were put out for review for feedback. 2 examples of many I quote which came back. 1. British Telecom. Who said such proposals are rubbish and makes payroll and HR really bad as men leave and get fed up with being portrayed as villains and cash points. 2. FnF. Who said, the maintenance disregard is a step in the right place, then, the proposals are really rubbish and makes payroll and HR really bad as men leave and get fed up with being portrayed as villains and cash points. The government published the first line of the FnF response and ignored the rest of all other males responses which all criticised it. The moral. Perhaps is that you can use words and statistics to back any side of the argument. I would like to see thefamily courts opened up to scruitany. I don\'t trust the government. After reading the responses to the consultation which were 99.9% negative the Government\'s following paper put in the 0.1% positive response to make the responses look positive. I support F4F in their protest, whatever it is (I trust what they say more than the Government, in the absence of an objective view) to open up the family law courts.

Captain Oates

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:31:47

\'Non-payment of CM impacts on society as it contributes to child poverty, the taxpayer and so on\' Read this, no idea. It is over simplistic. Government policy on the family contributes to child poverty, single parent families, increased taxation, reduced social mobility etc. The problem was created by the CSA. The CSA has cost more money then it has recovered both directly in money and indirrectly with its knock on effects. We took it from the US, guess where the roots are from? The USSR had the first such system. Put it all back to the Courts. Child poverty isn\'t financial it\'s emotional too and splitting up a family is worse then less income. I suppose it all comes down to opinion, but I think all through Court has to be the way to go with pre nups. Lines in the sand (percentages), broad brushes encourage people to walk over them. All this emotional violin stuff does my head in. I heard it in court from a private Barrister claiming poverty for his client (my ex). You are arging the same thing. You are both wrong.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

speak as you find... my experience of the csa is a positive one... they gave me good advice- helped me with the payment setup and even provided help with documentation for court. having done my own research into fnf and ffj... some of them have been treated very badly by the media... one chap was on Richard and Judy remember>? his story was unbelivable... but his whole sit was resolved with one phone call to a judge who sent a handwritten contact/residence order by fax to his computer- apparently it printed as the Police arrived (sent by ex...) he showed them the order and 10-years of misery ended... what a pity it had to go so far... and his kids had to miss thier dad for 6-of those 10 years... madness

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

are you mrs thatcher? or M? lol- just had a mental picture of M tapping away on her laptop- \'Take a seat Bond, I am just replying to Owl..\' \'Owl? is that our man in China?\' \'No, Bo6nd our woman in New Zealand...\' \'mmm... so much to learn, M...\' ray - noidea is right... mind you ... it has intrigued me as to her possible occupation- so exclusive the name could identify her out of the 60-million people in the uk and the 2-3 billion users of the internet worldwide...

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Hilarious obi :o) I\'m sure all here dont give a stuff who noidea is. Most know who ER is and I am sure she gets no personal flack from that. I have posted an email and even my home address if you remember - nothing untoward but have corresponded direct with a few members as a result. But then again, I\'m not secret agent lol

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

(in a Bond voice) \'should have kept her mouth shut...\' ;-)

noidea

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

There\'s some very weird people on the net.. You two for a start. Never mind ray, next time don\'t just post your email and home address, offer some bus fare as well and you might get lucky :o)

ray_of_sunshine

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Hey, I\'m not weird, I\'m unique lol.

obiwankenobi

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Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

sorry M- it wont happen again...
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